| Author | Message | ||
     Candra Bryson (Candra) Powdery Mildew Username: candra Post Number: 38 Registered: 07-2007 |
One year later...What has happened to this proposal? Did I miss something? I really like Bill's idea of certification, both the what you get and what you are expected to give. And then we could put out a list of certified gardens, which would be a great way to connect with each other and also to know who is growing what, esp if certified gardens have to submit and keep updated a list of what they grow and would have an obligation to grow roses that are in danger of extinction. | ||
| Linda Buzzell-Saltzman (Linda) Bug Squisher Username: Linda Post Number: 62 Registered: 01-2006 |
Excellent ideas, Bill! I think the National Wildlife certification is a great model and highly motivating. Some of the members of our local organic garden club have gone for the certification and it's a highly educational process! | ||
| Kathleen Lapergola (Roselady44) Powdery Mildew Username: roselady44 Post Number: 40 Registered: 10-2004 |
I will also help if anyone needs cuttings from my garden?? | ||
| Fara Shimbo (Fara_shimbo) Shovel Pruner Username: fara_shimbo Post Number: 147 Registered: 04-2006 |
Bill, everyone, This looks like a great idea to me! Count me in if anything starts to really get rolling. | ||
| William Cartwright (Bill) Powdery Mildew Username: Bill Post Number: 13 Registered: 06-2006 |
I'm not sure what has happened with any of these proposals, but here are my thoughts. What if the Heritage Rose Foundation created a "Certified Heritage Rose Garden" program? This would allow both private gardens (including individual homeowners) and public gardens to qualify for "certification". The way I'd see it, the qualifications for "certification" would be very low, and on the "honors system", but would require a fee at least adequate to make the program self-sustaining. Each certified garden would have access to a searchable (and user-editable) database of their garden's collection. The one "requirement" of a Certified Garden would be to keep information up to date. A general statement of purpose could be drawn up, such as "this garden is committed to the care, culture, preservation and disemination of historic heritage roses....or some more considered mission statement. Their could also be a number of "ideals" (as opposed to requirements) Certified Gardens could hope to fulfill. Some examples: 1) Private gardens, at owner's discretion, should try to accommodate reasonable requests by other Certified Historic Gardens for cuttings or other propagation materials. 2) Public gardens, within their own rules and regulations, should make every effort to extend propogation privilages to other Certified Gardens, with a special emphasis on roses not readily available in commerce. 3) All Certified Gardens would be asked to consider the "rarity" of a worthy rose in their collection as a reason to propagate it as widely as possible, rather than viewing rarity as a badge of honor and "exclusivity" (as spreading old roses into as many hands as possile is a cardinal virtue in this endevor). 4) All Certified Gardens would be asked to help, within their ability, educate and inform interested members of the general public on the value and care of old roses, and if possible aid in facilitating planting by old rose neophytes. 5) Owners of Private Gardens would be asked to consider opening their gardens to events such as garden tours, visits by fellow Certifed Heritage Gardners, and even curious neighbors who just happen past. 6) Private Certified Gardeners would be asked, within their ability, to help support the Public Certified Gardens, whether through financial donations, or volunteering to help dead-head, or by growing roses for the plants sale...or what have you. 7) All gardens will ideally label their collections with easily readable signs, especially those roses in their collections which might be seen by members of the general public on a day to day basis. 8) Certified Gardens should consider working with State, County, and Local officials to plant appropriate heritage roses in public spaces, parks, and other areas of historic interest. There are no doubt many other guidelines that could be considered, and these are certainly open to any revision, but these are a few which leap to mind as preliminary thoughts to kicked around. I addition to "certification" I would also propose each Certified Garden have the option to purchase a handsomely designed (12" H X 9" W) yard-sign, which would declare to the world (or at least to the neighbors) that contained within is a "Certified Heritage Rose Garden". Include on the sign would be the "mission statement" of the program and the url of the Historic Rose Foundation. Funny how little things like a "cool yard-sign" can motivate people positively. I know I went on a California Native Garden tour this fall and several homes were certified by the National Wildlife Federation (and had signs posted to "prove" it). We have not yet certified our yard, but am strongly considering it. We strongly support the idea of our yard a a wildlife habitat, and believe we certainly qualify for certification under the NWF guidelines. But the idea of formally applying for certification for habitat status has got me thinking about what more I could do to make the yard even MORE habitat friendly...so I've expanded water availability, made a couple mason bee houses, built some rock piles for lizards, and have been planning out plantings for still more food and nectar sources for birds and butterflys, etc. The existence of the NWF program, and their materials online, positively motivated me to do some things I had not even considered before. I think the National Wildlife Federation certification is a great model for something we could do. Again, I believe the barriers to certification should be almost non-existent, just good-will towars the efforts values, and perhaps one well loved old rose bush. Sometimes small things can inspire people. A simple yard-sign in someones yard may light the imagination of a passing neighbor, and pretty soon there could be a few "Certified Historic Rose Gardens" in the neighborhood. Seems like a great way to perpetuate historic roses to me. Here's a link to the National Wildlife Federation's Certification program: http://www.nwf.org/backyard/ And another direct link that shows their sign (we could do even better design-wise, me thinks) https://secure.nwf.org/backyardwildlifehabitat/certify/signOrder.cfm Welcome any feedback. Cheers all, Bill | ||
| Crenagh and David Elliott (Crenaghdavid) Bug Squisher Username: crenaghdavid Post Number: 39 Registered: 03-2005 |
Sue, please let us know what is planned in Seattle. We have been told that a group of Australiand gardeners are visiting Victoria and our garden has got on their list! Have heard nothing since so we may be able to get over after the weekend of the ARS convention. If we can is there any possibility of arranging accomodation? | ||
| Baldo Villegas (Sactorose) Bug Squisher Username: sactorose Post Number: 32 Registered: 04-2005 |
Hay Sue: I look forward to meet you in Seattle. I will be going a few days early to go on the Cruise to Alaska with my wifey and one of my daughters. I will be sticking around the area and attend the ARS convention there. Hopefully see some beautiful gardens and visit with friends. Oh, yes I have to do a couple of work related things while up there that might take me to Spokane. Hmm.. anybody in that area that I might know? Let's have an HRF meeting while we are at it! I haven't met many of the members although I have exchanged emails with many for years. Baldo | ||
| stephen scanniello (Steprose) Supreme Crown Gall ! Username: steprose Post Number: 381 Registered: 01-2006 |
that's too bad, but we'll be in touch | ||
| Crenagh and David Elliott (Crenaghdavid) Bug Squisher Username: crenaghdavid Post Number: 37 Registered: 03-2005 |
Our Canadian Database for Canadian Hybrids is now over 650. I the light of the experiance doing it, as an excel file, I offer any help I can give. Stephen, we will not get to Seattle. | ||
| stephen scanniello (Steprose) Supreme Crown Gall ! Username: steprose Post Number: 379 Registered: 01-2006 |
Hi Sue, we will definitely be in touch, thanks for the offer. Meanwhile, I'm looking forward to seeing you in Seattle, stephen | ||
| Mel Hulse (Kernel) Bug Squisher Username: kernel Post Number: 73 Registered: 09-2004 |
Hi Sue, HelpMeFind.com/Roses is providing a great source of garden contents information. I hope it can expand the number of gardens and their contents that are uploaded and maintained. At some future time, it may be possible to use that data to determine exceptionally rare roses. Check it out. | ||
| Sue Hopkins (Seattlesuze) Bug Squisher Username: SeattleSuze Post Number: 20 Registered: 01-2006 |
Gregg and Kay, I'm available to help with the structuring of a database on an web-based project. I may not be able to attend all of the meetings, but please do keep me in mind as a resource in this effort. -Sue Hopkins | ||
| Crenagh and David Elliott (Crenaghdavid) Bug Squisher Username: crenaghdavid Post Number: 11 Registered: 03-2005 |
This ties to what Crenagh and I are working on. A database listing of Canadian Hybrids with locations if possible. Up to 350 so far. If anyone feels that they have information please contact us. | ||
| Diane Watson (Llpnut) Shovel Pruner Username: llpnut Post Number: 3 Registered: 01-2006 |
somehow if one is looking for a backup for a noisette garden, I feel certain Rozanna will be more than willing to take care of those roses... | ||
| Jeri Jennings (Jeri) Bug Squisher Username: Jeri Post Number: 60 Registered: 01-2006 |
Sadly, more than one of the roses at Leonie Bell has already died from RRD. The first to go was just at the outskirts of the Noisette square: a clone of Rosa roxbergii from Thomas Jefferson's second home, Poplar Forest, in Lynchburg. *** Which demonstrates, among other things, the importance of distribution -- so that if a cv is lost in one site, it won't be lost entirely. It's the "backup" system. Jeri Jennings | ||
| Merrill Hulse (Kernel) Bug Squisher Username: kernel Post Number: 29 Registered: 09-2004 |
Kay, I think there is a place for both public gardens and a database of CVs and where they are, public & private. Public gardens such as the Heritage & the Sacramento Cemetery definitly serve as distribution points in that we collect roses and provide a source of wood for nurseries and private collectors. Public gardens also provide a place to view roses of interest to see how they do under strained conditions as well as serve as a repository for rare roses. Da Kernel | ||
| ann peck (Anntn6b) Bug Squisher Username: anntn6b Post Number: 10 Registered: 01-2006 |
"A similar garden at the Thomas Jefferson Center for Historic Plants, the Leonie Bell Noisette Garden, has likewise tried to gather together specifically all the old Noisette roses." And the danger of having them in a single garden is also "celebrated" at Leonie Bell, because Rose Rosette is in Albemarle County where the LB Noisette Garden resides. Sadly, more than one of the roses at Leonie Bell has already died from RRD. The first to go was just at the outskirts of the Noisette square: a clone of Rosa roxbergii from Thomas Jefferson's second home, Poplar Forest, in Lynchburg. There is/has been RRD in the wild R. multiflora within eyeshot of the garden. | ||
| Kay Cangemi (Mad_gallica) Greenhorn Username: Mad_gallica Post Number: 1 Registered: 01-2006 |
Having dealt with 'public' gardens, I have fundamental problems with the entire idea of a centralized collection. It doesn't really address the problem of getting the varieties distributed, and leaves the collections vulnerable to events. Distribution is the whole point. Getting the varieties out there so the loss of one garden doesn't mean the loss of the variety. There is also a problem with exclusivity. Having designated large collections takes the average gardener out of the process. In other endeavours, this relates to a loss of interest. Preserving roses becomes somebody else's problem, therefore invisible. What I would like to propose is a collection scheme of information. A database of who has what. After this is collected, then figuring out what roses are truly rare and must be distributed to survive. *Anybody* who can reasonably be expected to give those roses suitable care should be allowed to participate. Because of the duplication of roses, no roses will be lost if large, established collections can no longer be maintained. New collections can be built more easily because sourcing information will be more readily available. Nobody has to come up with a ton of money to maintain gardens because the true overhead is in keeping the database. The whole point is that the collections aren't static, and everybody can participate. There are a lot of people who have cheerfully offered to make room for one or two rare roses. As an organization, let's take them up on that offer. | ||
| Gregg Lowery (Gregg) Greenhorn Post Number: 1 Registered: 01-2006 |
Celsiana, I think that the idea is more that we preserve by sharing old roses. A recognized collection is expected to share with another collection of similar value. By duplicating and triplicating a rose in several recognized collections, the varieties are less likely to be lost. This is a bit like passing heirlooms along to assure their survival, rather than trying to fix a collection for all time. -Gregg | ||
| Celsiana (Celsiana_rose) Greenhorn Post Number: 1 Registered: 01-2006 |
I suppose there needs to be some type of Trust Foundation set up for the collector gardens to be relocated or kept. Being historically famous does not guarantee safety for the unique rose. Even Empress Josephines collection was not protected and fell to ruin and loss. | ||
| Crenagh and David Elliott (Crenaghdavid) Powdery Mildew Post Number: 2 Registered: 03-2005 |
Pierre, and others. In New Zealand in December Helga Brichet will again (as in Sangerhausen) be convening a meeting of the WFRS conservation committee. Maybe those unable to attend could talk to those planning to when we all meet in May. | ||
| Rozanna Tamplin (Rozanna) Powdery Mildew Post Number: 2 Registered: 09-2004 |
I am with Lisa and Pierre on this one. Can I "will" my roses to the HRF. Will someone come and get them if I am not here to love them anymore? | ||
| Pierre Lauwers (Pierre_lauwers) Powdery Mildew Post Number: 2 Registered: 09-2004 |
Lisa has a point here. In my worst nightmare, a yupee buys my house after I'm gone to the big compost pile; he hires a reputed landscaper to "fix this jungle". Landscapers are the kind of guys who believe there should be no more than two or three varieties of any species in one garden. So The Fairy and Queen Elisabeth (probably 70% of the belgian rose market...) will do. See what I mean? So I think private collectors should work in a partnership with public collections; these are the "gene banks", while the privates dedicate themselves to pamper the roses in order they can show what they really are. So far, so good, but there are two problems to adress: 1)-"Public" anything is not very fashionable by these days. 2)- Public gardens often show a *slight* tendancy to sit down on their vars....As if it where their capital -museum mentality-. So we need to push heavily indeed. I'd advocate nothing less than a worldwide basis. To convince the WFRS can be difficult, but to convince individual states might be as difficult. So... Best wishes, Pierre Lauwers. | ||
| Lisa Pflug (Lisa_pflug) Greenhorn Post Number: 1 Registered: 09-2004 |
Hello, I just found this forum today, and hope my input will be useful. I have a rose garden and little nursery in Pass Christian, MS. Although it is not huge, I think I would be interested in participating in something like Gregg describes, and think it is a good idea. I believe having a selection of display gardens rather than or in addition to one huge garden is smart. Many people simply won’t or can’t travel very far, so having the gardens scattered about the country provides more access to people. And it shows them what roses grow well in their area. Also, I agree with Gregg that having these collections in the care of rose lovers rather than botanical garden s makes sense. Who better to give these plants the care they deserve? My garden is far from perfect since my time is limited, but I spend nearly all my spare time working with my plants, and don’t intend to stop until old age prevents me from doing it. One goal in having the nursery is to earn enough to pay someone to care for the garden after I am too old to do it alone. I guess I have become a tea and china rose collector because these are the roses that do best in my climate. I have about 50 teas and 20 chinas in my garden of about 200 roses. I have another 20 or so of each in pots. The provenance of most is known. I have cleared about 1/2-3/4 an acre of land to expand and if the HRF were interested in pursuing having me designated as a repository for these roses, that might affect how I construct things. The garden and little sales area (I work full time, do the garden/nursery part time) are on a separate piece of land next to my home, and using my current waterwell. I have separate electric and will soon have a new well on the rose land and some automated irrigation. I was planning to grow my roses in pots, but could easily put in more rose beds and have more display garden if I knew that more people would be interested in seeing them. I have 11 acres, over 9 are wetlands and not suitable for development, but they provide a nice setting for the garden, which sits 5 miles off an I-10 exit in MS. I am only an hours drive from New Orleans and Mobile. I can easily satisfy the ‘being open occasionally to the public’ part of the requirements, have always been more than happy to share my roses with other rosarians, and enjoy helping new rose growers . My situation has some drawbacks – the land is not nearly as much as I would like (having it next to my home was important) and I have no bathroom for visitors yet, but I am intrigued by the idea of sharing in the preservation of my favorite roses in a formal way. I built my garden not only for myself, but because visitors take such joy in seeing antique roses here, and as my husband tells everyone, the main goal of the nursery is that it gives me an excuse to meet and chat with people about roses. I understand such an undertaking would be a long-term commitment, but my initial thoughts are that this could work. I am already building a collection of tea and china roses and am open for visitors. The HRF association would bring more meaning to what I am doing, and perhaps the means to do more that I could do on my own. I have never had the opportunity to visit Vintage Gardens or the other great gardens in other states, and I’m sure my little space would pale in comparison, but I like to think that I am building something that people will appreciate. I am not sure I have the means or energy to do it, but it is possible that I could obtain a different piece of property nearby with more dry land and a better layout. I would certainly consider it for something as important as maintaining a collection of antique roses. One possible issue with Gregg’s scheme is what happens to a private collection when the person who had the collection dies? If I could afford it, I’d donate the whole thing to the HRF, but if I keep spending all my time growing roses, I’ll never have any money, as you all know. Even if the HRF could afford to buy the property, they would have to find a full-time rose lover nearby to take over running the garden, which isn’t likely. I guess so long as the HRF could find another person willing to take the collection, it could be dug up and shipped/trucked and put into a new garden. Or so long as there are 2 other collections somewhere, the closing of one wouldn’t be too bad. A replacement garden/person could be found and provided with plants. | ||
| Gregg Lowery (Admin) Board Administrator Post Number: 6 Registered: 09-2004 |
The focus of this discussion is to consider how to implement a scheme along the lines of the proposal that I made in 2002 to the Foundation Board to establish a National or North American set of Heritage Rose Collections connected to the HRF. The body of that original proposal follows here. I would appreciate any thoughts that can be generated, so that we might proceed with distinct areas of research into how to implement such a plan. Re: Proposal for the Development of a National Heritage Rose Collections Scheme I would like to ask you, the members in charge of guiding the future of the Heritage Rose Foundation to allow me a few minutes of your attention to hear a proposal I offer for an undertaking that I think the Foundation should consider. The original goals of the Heritage Rose Foundation commence with two connected points; to 1.) "Collect and preserve heritage roses and promote their culture…" and 2.) "Establish one or more gardens wherein heritage roses may be grown and displayed." Though nearly all of the other stated purposes of the Foundation have been addressed and moved forward since 1986, these two goals have not been acted upon. A number of proposals have been considered, as in the case of the rose garden at Chatwood, North Carolina, but the financial burden of maintaining a garden has continued to discourage members of the Foundation from embarking on undertakings that would serve these great purposes of the Foundation. I do believe that any serious discussion among members of developing and maintaining a large rose collection on the existing funds of the Foundation would raise fundamental questions as to how such a garden could be endowed at the present time. While creative fundraising might conceivably result in a reasonable endowment, we have not yet found the means or the energy to pursue the building of a garden. While I am a firm believer that the HRF will one day possess such a garden, and I hope one of the finest gardens of heritage roses ever to be developed, I think that we are not yet at that crossroads. But that does not mean that we cannot now strive to tackle those goals of ‘collecting and preserving heritage roses, and establishing one or more gardens wherein heritage roses may be grown and displayed.’ I propose that the Heritage Rose Foundation establish a National Heritage Rose Collections Scheme, similar to national plant collections schemes that exist in England, France, Germany and other European countries. These schemes combine private and public entities to recognize outstanding collections of ornamental plants for what they are, ‘national treasures,’ and by focussing attention on these existing plant collections, draw support for them from the communities where they are located. These national plant collections schemes are founded on a basic principal; if you encourage the plant collector to maintain their collection in good condition and to open it up to be shared with the public and with other like-minded collectors, then the plants will give more pleasure to and better enlighten the public, and find a longer survival through distribution. Rather than attempting to create the megalithic plant collections that are found in great botanic gardens like Kew Gardens, the national plant collections schemes see the world of ornamental plants as thriving in microcosm in the hands of many, many avid gardeners. In a smaller garden, with a narrower focus, the plants are often being far better cared for than the collections found in those larger, broader-based botanic gardens. In Britain gardens, both public and private, throughout the country, house collections of roses, peonies, iris, hemerocallis, hostas, ivies, penstemons, hebes, hydrangeas, dianthus, and countless other genera of plants which are widely grown in modern gardens. These collections are designated "National Plant Collections" in order to draw attention to the extraordinary quality of the collections, and in order to bring public attention to the great value that those collections have for the people. Just as museum collections of art provide a valuable resource to a community and a people, plant collections are seen to enrich the people of Britain. If we were to apply this principal to our goal of preserving old roses we might very quickly be able to create that great garden of old roses, by encouraging old rose collectors who have already developed exceptional gardens to join hands in a national old rose collections scheme. Exactly how this scheme would operate should, I think, be the business of a group of interested members of the Foundation to brainstorm and work out. But let me suggest one approach for the sake of illustrating this idea. Gardenerswho love old roses and develop extensive collections of them often find themselves drawn to particular types of roses. This can be the result of a combination of personal taste and what grows well where we live, but it generally results in collections that are heavy in a particular type of old rose. In Charleston the collection of Noisette roses at Hampton Park has grown from a connection with the history of the rose, and with the adaptability of the Noisettes to the hot, humid climate of the Low Country. For Suzanne Verrier, in the very cold winters of Maine, Gallicas and Rugosas have proven to be suited to the climate, and have captured the love and admiration of one gardener. While some gardeners may collect in contradiction to the demands of environment, we have seen across the country a tendency in old rose collectors to create collections that reflect the regional climates in which they live. The idea of the tough old rose that needs no pampering still draws many converts to old roses. While rose classification is far from an ideal method for grouping roses, it is a widely accepted system, and I think might form an initial basis for designating national rose collections; collections of Tea roses, Chinas, Noisettes, Rugosas, Gallicas, etc., etc. These collections would need to be the very best of their kind; representing as many varieties from that rose class as are to be found, ideally (or at least striving toward that level of representation.) In Charleston the garden at Hampton Park has aimed specifically to gather together all the known forms of Old Noisettes that can be found. A similar garden at the Thomas Jefferson Center for Historic Plants, the Leonie Bell Noisette Garden, has likewise tried to gather together specifically all the old Noisette roses. The aim of the Foundation in overseeing an old rose collections scheme would be to try to identify such collections of old roses across the country as are noteworthy for particular classes of roses. Once identified the collections would be offered status as national old rose collections, specific to their speciality. It is the offering of that status which raises the greatest number of questions and poses some problems which must be addressed. I propose something along these lines: 1.) The garden owner would agree to maintain their special collection, and to continue to expand it. He or she, or the organization in charge of it in the case of public gardens, would agree to freely share propagation material with other designated collections which share their particular specialty. (For example, both the Charleston Noisette collection and the Leonie Bell collection might be National Old Noisette Rose Collections, sharing and exchanging freely so that hopefully no old Noisette exists in only one location. These two gardens, in accepting their NCOR status, would agree to share freely with one another.) The garden owner would agree further to be willing to share their collection with other affiliated NCOR gardens, and to be willing to share propagation material with the Foundation if at any time in the future a Foundation garden is created. 2.) The garden owner would agree to open their garden for the Foundation and its members, and ideally to the public (on a fund-raising basis) on some limited basis; once a year at least. 3.) The Foundation would create a registry of National Old Rose Collections. It would limit status for a particular rose class to two or perhaps three gardens, or create guidelines for offering the special status which would not allow the value of the status to become watered down and meaningless. The registry would include a central file source listing all roses in all the collections, updated annually, with details on accession sources and other information deemed significant. 4.) The Foundation would develop strategies for helping the owners of these gardens to find assistance, whether fiscal or physical, to help maintain the rose collections. This would involve developing a porfolio of approaches to finding help, ranging from programs for enlisting volunteers to targeting and applying for private and government grants. The details of how this scheme would operate deserve special attention and the input of many concerned and interested members of the rose community. The relationship between Foundation and garden owner needs to be simple, flexible and not legally daunting. There are good examples which we may draw from, including the Garden Conservancy which similarly tries to provide assistance to notable gardens without becoming responsible for them. In the greater rose community there are hurdles to leap; will members of the ARS feel the Foundation has no right to take on this task? Since the Foundation is an international organization, is it wrong to call these National Collections? And if we call them International Collections, how many more rose societies might be offended? Can we get folks to agree on the collection labels? Can we expand our notion of collections to include overall old rose collections like the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden? Or, might we move even further afield to consider special status for collections of de-virused old roses, regardless of their classification? Despite what we may face in challenges in developing this scheme, I do believe that the benefits to the Foundation and to the cause of old roses are many and very rewarding. We have an opportunity to reawaken interest in old roses across the country, and to put a serious face to old rose preservation. We have a chance to bring attention to the hard-working and devoted collectors of old roses who are the real preservers, and whose work will pass these roses on to the next generation of old rose lovers. We can begin to build a collection for the Foundation from the many collections of its members present and future. We can establish a National Old Rose Day, when gardeners across the country can visit rare and notable collections of old roses in their areas. We can create a greater bond between old rose collectors across the country through a spirit of sharing with and learning from one another. We can focus local attention onto the work of old rose growers, and broaden the old rose audience by recognizing the value of these national treasures. From the Foundation’s standpoint, its goals are greatly furthered, its reputation increased, its membership can grow. -Gregg Lowery |