| Author | Message | ||
     Robert Neil Rippetoe (Psroseguy) Powdery Mildew Username: PSroseguy Post Number: 5 Registered: 09-2004 |
The true Gallicas don't get enough chill to satisfy their flowering needs in the Palm Springs area which is similar to Phoenix. 'Cardinal Richelieu' is satisfactory but is sometimes listed as a hybrid China. As it's purportedly triploid this stands to reason. | ||
| Cass Bernstein (Cass) Bug Squisher Username: Cass Post Number: 152 Registered: 01-2006 |
I can't speak for Arizona, but in the San Francisco Bay Area, even with considerable chill in summer from fog, we don't see repeat in the gallicas, even though it does induce considerable scattered bloom in many ramblers. Charles de Mills is a real standout in our climate. It blooms late and profusely. I'm not sure how the blooms handle high heat, however. | ||
| stephen scanniello (Steprose) Supreme Crown Gall ! Username: steprose Post Number: 551 Registered: 01-2006 |
we notice that in our zone 7 gardens most roses go dormant in the heat of summer. I would call that sulking, just like I do when it gets too hot. Do the gallicas bloom again in the autumn once the cool evenings begin (in Arizona)? | ||
| Robert B. Martin Jr. (Petrose) Powdery Mildew Username: PetRose Post Number: 7 Registered: 01-2006 |
Ann - I don't have to ask her that because this is Arizona. Our roses bloom in early to mid-April and are wonderful. By mid-May the temperatures reach 100 degrees and all the blooms are fried or become little. The roses sulk through the summer seeking to survive in heat that is over 100 degrees, often over 110. This goes on day after day after day after day. The roses return again in November and are beautiful again. The Gallicas don't repeat enough to comment on, if they repeat at all; but neither do many of the OGRs. That's life in the desert. So the answer to your question is that we get three, maybe four weeks of bloom - sometimes less. | ||
| suzanne silvir (Silvirtree) Greenhorn Username: silvirtree Post Number: 5 Registered: 05-2006 |
Petrose, I am very pleasently surprised by your report of Gallicas doing well here in Gilbert. I was just looking over a cool Gallica hybred on Paul Barden's website and he even stated that it woudn't be a hot climate rose. So where did the advice that Gallicas sulk in the heat originate? Suzanne | ||
| ann peck (Anntn6b) Bug Squisher Username: anntn6b Post Number: 137 Registered: 01-2006 |
Bob, In hopes that Dona will remember, how many weeks of bloom did she grow to expect from Apothecary's Rose? Ann | ||
| Robert B. Martin Jr. (Petrose) Greenhorn Username: PetRose Post Number: 5 Registered: 01-2006 |
Adding more, I talked with Dona who tells me she grew the Apothecary's Rose, Charles de Mills and Belle de Crecy in her previous Arizona garden, and all did very well. She repeats her observation that Gallicas do very well here. | ||
| Robert B. Martin Jr. (Petrose) Greenhorn Username: PetRose Post Number: 4 Registered: 01-2006 |
Chinas do very well here; in fact they have a reliable repeat. So perhaps it is the China bloodline. We do not have the others mentioned, though perhaps Dona grew them in her previous garden. I will have to ask her as she is the one who pointed out how well Gallicas do. A newer Gallica for us is Van Arteveld, which we got from Ashdown. It's off to a good start. One thought which comes to mind is that Gallicas are supposed to like a period of dormancy that usually comes from chilling. In Arizona 120 days in a row of plus 100 degree temperatures induces a dormancy, or near-dormancy, in many roses and it is interesting to speculate about whether extreme summer heat may be the reason Gallicas do well here. | ||
| Malcolm M Manners (Mmanners) Bug Squisher Username: mmanners Post Number: 32 Registered: 10-2004 |
Bob, I don't know Comte de Nanteuil, but I know Cardinal de Richelieu is believed to have quite a lot of China blood in its background. I wonder if those "Gallicas" which are really Hybrid Chinas (in the traditional, not the current ARS sense) are better in heat than the purer Gallicas? Have you tried Gallica Officinalis, Rosa Mundi, Charles de Mills, and/or others that seem not to have significan't China genes in them, in your climate? Malcolm | ||
| Robert B. Martin Jr. (Petrose) Greenhorn Username: PetRose Post Number: 3 Registered: 01-2006 |
To answer the original question, we garden in Gilbert, east of Phoenix, and our experience is that Gallicas do very well in the heat. Two of Dona's favorites are 'Cardinal de Richeliu' and 'Comte de Nanteuil'. Both grow like weeds but do unfortunately sucker a lot, requiring a great deal of work to keep from creating Brer' Rabbit's patch. | ||
| stephen scanniello (Steprose) Supreme Crown Gall ! Username: steprose Post Number: 519 Registered: 01-2006 |
yep, we never know if we're getting one till it's to late. I think we're the same as Philadelphia (inner city), where Swathmore may be a bit colder, not much | ||
| suzanne silvir (Silvirtree) Greenhorn Username: silvirtree Post Number: 2 Registered: 05-2006 |
Thankyou, Siri, that is terrific news. I have been missing my Gallicas ever since I moved to the desert. There is a large peach farm right down the road, so perhaps we will get enough chill to make the Gallicas happy. | ||
| ann peck (Anntn6b) Bug Squisher Username: anntn6b Post Number: 134 Registered: 01-2006 |
Malcolm makes it so clear! And the modern weather stations would make it so easy. From my garden that had good bloom on albas damasks and centifolias and less good bloom on some of the gallicas, comes the question how do we define (quantitatively) what is good bloom versus poor bloom quantity. Before we did a musical roses (DH's version of musical chairs), the albas and centifolias and damasks were laden with bloom. The second heavily laden year, the bloom explosion coincided with a spike in low 90s temps, and the bloom explosion ended in three days. The first 90s spike this year is now, not mid May, so we did have good bloom on the old ones (some are still recovering from their moves). As a first suggestion: how many blooms at each leaf axil from last year? should/would a rose produce to be a heavy producer? | ||
| Steven Cangemi (Scangemi) Shovel Pruner Username: scangemi Post Number: 12 Registered: 04-2006 |
Of course we can grow orchids outside. We have native orchids. I'm pretty sure Swarthmore keeps their banana in the ground for the winter. They'd be a little colder than where Stephen is. Personally, I couldn't handle those Philadelphia winters, and I expect coastal New Jersey winters would drive me similarly batty. | ||
| Malcolm M Manners (Mmanners) Bug Squisher Username: mmanners Post Number: 29 Registered: 10-2004 |
In the eastern USA, the southern border of Tennessee / northern border of Alabama and Georgia is about where maximum chilling occurs. As you go south of there, it's too warm too much of the time; as you go north of there, they spend too much of the winter actually frozen and again, get fewer chill units. In the far West, especially west of the Sierra Nevada, the cool Pacific allows for hugely more chill units collected, in much warmer USDA zones. E.g., San Francisco (well over 1500 chill units) and Lakeland Florida (150 units) are both in zone 9b. It would be interesting if some grad student would study chilling in once-blooming rose classes. A great project! | ||
| stephen scanniello (Steprose) Supreme Crown Gall ! Username: steprose Post Number: 503 Registered: 01-2006 |
there is a hardy bananna. as per the other weeds, we can grow them outside, but they take a winter vacation indoors. | ||
| Jeri Jennings (Jeri) Rowdy Rosarian Username: Jeri Post Number: 392 Registered: 01-2006 |
But, Stephen -- Can you grow banannas outside? Bougainvillea? Plumeria??? Orchids???? If not, I'll just have to stay here in La-La-Land. :-) Jeri | ||
| stephen scanniello (Steprose) Supreme Crown Gall ! Username: steprose Post Number: 497 Registered: 01-2006 |
so, I take it no one wants to move to NJ? we have lots of chill units here. | ||
| Siri Amrit (Siriamrit) Powdery Mildew Username: Siriamrit Post Number: 12 Registered: 05-2006 |
This is really interesting. I had always misunderstood chill-hours to equate with freezing. Seems I can grow some cold-climate roses after all. I would still imagine that roses with some China genes might bloom better here than roses from classes that don't have it. | ||
| Malcolm M Manners (Mmanners) Bug Squisher Username: mmanners Post Number: 27 Registered: 10-2004 |
Chilling units for roses have never been well defined, as far as I know. But for fruit trees in the rose family (peaches, pears, apples, plums, etc.), chilling is fairly well understood, and it makes sense that, while the temperatures and times may not be identical for roses, they could at least serve as a "ballpark" estimate for roses. For peaches specifically, chilling units are equal to hours spent between 32 and 45 F. Below +32F, no chill units are collected at all. So it is chilly, but not freezing, weather which gives the plant chilling. At higher temperatures, chill units may still be collected, but more slowly. E.g., in peaches, from 45 up to about 55F, the "clock" runs slower and slower. At 45, one unit per hour would be collected. At 50, it might take 5 or 6 hours to gain a unit. As it approaches 55F, the clock slows to be almost stopped. Then, from about 55 to about 65, the clock is stopped -- chill units are neither being collected nor lost. At temperatures above 65, units are lost, and the warmer it gets, the faster they are lost. So in a climate like ours, chilling unit balance is rather like a bank account into which you are making deposits, but from which you are also making withdrawals. The question is, will you ever reach that magic balance at which the plant decides to grow or flower? Chilling in roses cannot work precisely as it does for fruits. In the case of peaches, a tree that receives inadequate chilling may actually die. But we grew Gallicas in our central Florida gardens for years. They grow just fine. They just never seemed to get around to flowering. So in fruit trees, chilling controls growth overall, in the spring. In roses, it appears to affect the decision to flower, but not whether the plant will resume vegetative growth. | ||
| Jeri Jennings (Jeri) Rowdy Rosarian Username: Jeri Post Number: 390 Registered: 01-2006 |
I don't think it froze in Mesa or Phoenix at all last winter. If it did, it was maybe 30-31 degrees for a few hours for only a few nights. I wouldn't think that would be enough, but this woman says they do fine here. *** *** This past MARCH, for the first time in 20 years, we had temps down to 34 deg. here, and some days that did not climb out of the 40's. It made an IMMENSE difference for the few roses still here, that need some winter. I also know people who grow things like Leda in the AZ desert -- something I cannot do here. Jeri | ||
| Siri Amrit (Siriamrit) Powdery Mildew Username: Siriamrit Post Number: 10 Registered: 05-2006 |
What is the definition of winter chill? Below freezing, or below 28 degrees? How many chill hours does a Gallica need? I don't think it froze in Mesa or Phoenix at all last winter. If it did, it was maybe 30-31 degrees for a few hours for only a few nights. I wouldn't think that would be enough, but this woman says they do fine here. | ||
| Jeri Jennings (Jeri) Rowdy Rosarian Username: Jeri Post Number: 388 Registered: 01-2006 |
Siri -- I don't think it's the HEAT that is the factor. I think it's the hours of winter chill -- and the desert DOES get winter chill. Jeri | ||
| Siri Amrit (Siriamrit) Powdery Mildew Username: Siriamrit Post Number: 9 Registered: 05-2006 |
I was just talking to someone in Mesa ("next door" to Phoenix) who is growing Gallicas successfully here. I was surprised to hear that, but she insists that they are doing fine. She mentioned Belle de Crecy and some others, but I don't remember which ones. | ||
| stephen scanniello (Steprose) Supreme Crown Gall ! Username: steprose Post Number: 489 Registered: 01-2006 |
welcome Suzanne, I'm not sure, but I suspect that the gallicas will sulk in your heat and really miss having a cold winter. You probably should move to New Jersey. stephen | ||
| suzanne silvir (Silvirtree) Greenhorn Username: silvirtree Post Number: 1 Registered: 05-2006 |
I'm in Sunset zone 13, in Phoenix, and wonder if anyone has had any luck growing gallicas in similar climates |