| Author | Message | ||
     Cass Bernstein (Cass) Bug Squisher Username: Cass Post Number: 261 Registered: 01-2006 |
Gregg, you are forgiven in advance for all errors and omissions. You do too much and all of it better than anyone I know. The good news is that there is a way to propagate and study this rose, maybe eventually get it into the Horvath garden in Ohio and scattered around a bit. That's as much as we can hope for. | ||
| Gregg Lowery (Gregg) Bug Squisher Username: gregg Post Number: 16 Registered: 01-2006 |
I received an email today from Anne O'Neill, rose garden curator at the Brooklyn Botanic Garden, who reminded me that just last May she and I had spoken, and she had extended an offer to provide cuttings to Vintage Gardens for items that we felt needed to be preserved and distributed. I must apologize to Anne for having misrepresented her position and the position of the BBG, who are happy to share material on a request basis when they feel the request is merited. I have asked Anne for cuttings of Iceland Queen, and for a list of the garden inventory, or at the least a list of some of the rarest older roses in the garden, and I know that she is very willing to help. I believe that Anne has also been a bit overwhelmed by the state of naming in the rose garden, but I think that Stephen has been assisting with that to some extent? I think that I was in the midst of moving our nursery last summer when Anne made the offer, and the idea of taking on more roses terrified me, and I told her I would make requests next year, when I got her list. Hopefully now she will have time to provide some lists, and we can see what should be preserved. Dan, by the way, if you know of anything else that is in the BBG, please let me know so I can root a plant for you. (In trade for more cuttings of Climbing Break o' Day.) very humbled and full of thorns from pruning-- Gregg | ||
| Jeri Jennings (Jeri) Supreme Crown Gall ! Username: Jeri Post Number: 578 Registered: 01-2006 |
Hmmmmm . . . Do volunteers prune this garden? | ||
| Gregg Lowery (Gregg) Bug Squisher Username: gregg Post Number: 15 Registered: 01-2006 |
I have communicated at length with Anne O'Neil, the current curator, but she could not persuade the powers above to allow the sharing of material with nurseries--on an official basis, which has meant that only one rose has escaped to us, in an effort to save it from oblivion. Perhaps a request from Jill Perry on behalf of the SJHRG would be more successful. I know that Stephen has done his best and not gotten too far. | ||
| Cass Bernstein (Cass) Bug Squisher Username: Cass Post Number: 258 Registered: 01-2006 |
A Gardenweb regular who is a skilled photographer reports that Iceland Queen is still at Brooklyn Botanic, not in good shape. Now for the thorny question: what is the BBG policy on budwood for propagation to preserve the plant? This may be the last known labeled plant. | ||
| Dan Russo (Dan_russo) Bug Squisher Username: Dan_russo Post Number: 108 Registered: 05-2005 |
HA! Not that I've heard of  Though this might be an interesting research subject for me sometime  | ||
| stephen scanniello (Steprose) Supreme Crown Gall ! Username: steprose Post Number: 755 Registered: 01-2006 |
hrmmph, or however you spell that.... what was Dr. b's attraction to helen hayes and lily pons....had they met? torrid affairs? | ||
| Dan Russo (Dan_russo) Bug Squisher Username: Dan_russo Post Number: 107 Registered: 05-2005 |
umm...ok...what the heck was it?  | ||
| stephen scanniello (Steprose) Supreme Crown Gall ! Username: steprose Post Number: 753 Registered: 01-2006 |
you're very welcome, now about my question....dan?? | ||
| Dan Russo (Dan_russo) Bug Squisher Username: Dan_russo Post Number: 106 Registered: 05-2005 |
Having returned from the vault  it seems that 'Iceland Queen' is not in Karl Jones' collection booklet, darn it. As a footnote, it's very iteresting to me at least that he really didn't have many of the small-flowered ramblers, but oodles of large-flowered climbers. Thanks for all the research you've been doing, Stephen, & others. | ||
| stephen scanniello (Steprose) Supreme Crown Gall ! Username: steprose Post Number: 752 Registered: 01-2006 |
I've had a chance to dig thru some old files. Yes, when I started at BBG, Iceland Queen was also called Island Queen. We finally agreed that the Ice had been changed to "Is" due to a foreign accent. At that time, since I couldn't find records for "Island" Queen, we concluded that it was really "Iceland". Though, come to think of it, I did find a reference, somewhere to 'Island Queen' but that was only in one source {need to keep digging}- which did cause confusion back then. Joseph J. Kern Nursery (Mentor, Ohio) {see Kent's earlier post}: Climbing Roses: 'Iceland Queen' - Lg., dbl., creamy white, 1935....$2.00 also has 'Colonial White': - Med., dbl., white, 1959, F.....$2.50 I found this catalog (years ago) in the BBG discard pile (during a period of time we referred to as the "wipe out history week"). I suspect our 'Iceland Queen' came from Kern. I need to dig further to find the accession. But, the rose is still there, much smaller, labeled as 'Iceland Queen'. As far as I know, we never had 'Long John Silver'. The first time I ever saw 'LJS' was at L'Hay les Roses. It was nothing at all like 'IQ". 'IQ' had beautiful exhibition quality roses, unlike 'LJS', which looked more like a climbing rose should (clusters). My intereste in 'IQ' was because it was such a beauty. There was a nusery in Pennsylvania (near Allentown) that sold roses in tar paper pots. One of his climbers was simply labeled "White Pillar". Nothing at all like a Brownell, simply nice white roses - something the old guy had, lost the name, but sold it anyway. I always wondered if this was the same as our 'IQ', but not quite. stephen | ||
| Dan Russo (Dan_russo) Bug Squisher Username: Dan_russo Post Number: 104 Registered: 05-2005 |
I don't think Karl had 'Iceland Queen'. But wait, I'll check. (He had a privately-printed listing of roses in his collection that I have somewhere in the vault). Of course, it wouldn't hurt to ask Mike if he knows anything about this variety... BTW, I acquired quite a few varieties directly from Karl's garden just before the bulldozers moved-in, including a real 'Doubloons' by Horvath | ||
| stephen scanniello (Steprose) Supreme Crown Gall ! Username: steprose Post Number: 748 Registered: 01-2006 |
I wonder if Mike Lowe ever collected budwood from Mr. Jones. Mike was in touch with him near the end of the garden (it was sold off for developments, i think). | ||
| Cass Bernstein (Cass) Bug Squisher Username: Cass Post Number: 254 Registered: 01-2006 |
I spoke to Nick Weber at the Heritage Rosarium this morning. No, he does not have 'Iceland Queen.' He had hoped he collected it from the Rhode Island garden of Karl Jones (displayed prominently in ARA's in the late 50's and in a book titled Climbing Roses in the same time frame), but it was not. So we are back to the Cranford and a possible planting in Ohio. | ||
| Suzy Verrier (Suzy_verrier) Bug Squisher Username: Suzy_verrier Post Number: 17 Registered: 02-2006 |
Dan, That is interesting - I've been puzzled by my 'Long John Silver,' both by hardiness and later bloom. | ||
| ann peck (Anntn6b) Bug Squisher Username: anntn6b Post Number: 170 Registered: 01-2006 |
A quibble: Is is possible that we've missed Iceland Queen by visiting gardens when they are in peak bloom? In these parts R. setigeras are much later than peak bloom and the mention of Iceland Queen being later ...well could it be in a different time warp? | ||
| Kent Krugh (Kkrugh) Board Administrator Username: kkrugh Post Number: 76 Registered: 09-2004 |
Iceland Queen is listed in the 1968-69 "Joseph J. Kern Rose Nursery" catalog where he marked the roses he was to plant in the Wooster garden. IQ is one of the marked roses and listed with the climbing roses: "Iceland Queen - Lg., dbl, creamy white, 1935". IQ is also listed on the original "finding list" for the Wooster garden at Mentor. According to the landscape architect's drawing it was supposed to have been planted on the trellis at the rear of the garden. I saw no rose labeled IQ, although there were a few white climbers with suspect labeling. Two of the labeled white climbers were 'Mary Lovett' and 'Casa Blanca'. There was a third creamy white semi-double growing on the split rail fence on the east side of the garden. And perhaps others I missed or am forgetting. | ||
| stephen scanniello (Steprose) Supreme Crown Gall ! Username: steprose Post Number: 746 Registered: 01-2006 |
I wouldn't be surprised is the HR got their budwood from someone who collected budwood from Brooklyn. Just a hunch | ||
| Cass Bernstein (Cass) Bug Squisher Username: Cass Post Number: 253 Registered: 01-2006 |
Good point on the Heritage Rosarium, Dan. I'll give a call tomorrow. Another avenue to check would be any early Jackson Perkins catalogs from the mid 1930's for pictures of 'Long John Silver.' I just found out that my earlier quote of Modern Rose III is incorrect. I got the information from a third party, a misunderstanding. MR III actually says of Iceland Queen: LC (horvath, int. Wyant '35) Creamy white. The more detailed description of Iceland Queen shows up later, at least by Modern Roses V in 1958: LR [Large flowered Rambler] (Horvath, int. Wyant '35) Large.dbl., creamy white. Vig. | ||
| Jeri Jennings (Jeri) Supreme Crown Gall ! Username: Jeri Post Number: 554 Registered: 01-2006 |
<gasp!> Take cuttings from a public garden?! Surely NOT! | ||
| stephen scanniello (Steprose) Supreme Crown Gall ! Username: steprose Post Number: 745 Registered: 01-2006 |
danger will robinson. I wonder if roaming rosarians took cuttings from the Cranford suspect? | ||
| Dan Russo (Dan_russo) Bug Squisher Username: Dan_russo Post Number: 103 Registered: 05-2005 |
I hope Stephen follows-thru on this interesting issue. At the risk of being nauseatingly repetitive, I'll just say again that I suspect 'Iceland Queen' is the true ID for most of the 'Long John Silver' plants in commerce. Why? Because 'IQ' is usually described as pure or creamy white & double. The 1930s original plantings of 'Long John Silver' at Elizabeth Park are very large, double but flat, with a definite yellow in the bud & center petals like its Pernetiana HT parent 'Sunburst'. There were only 2 white large-flowered setigera climbers by Horvath, I believe. Of course, there's also his gorgeous pure white 'Polaris', somewhat recurrent, but that's classed as a rambler. (It's alive & well here in the good ol' USA, by the way. I've got photos of it somewhere in the vault, but its mighty cold down there now. Also have a photo of Horvath's last posthumous setigera climber 'Ritz'). Many of Horvath's large-flowered setigeras were sold through Wayside Gardens, when they were much more reputable & located in Mentor, Ohio. I have a number of their early catalogs with color photos of Horvath varieties, but no 'Iceland Queen'. But hey Cass, did you notice that 'IQ' is listed on HMF as being sold by Nick Weber in MD? I'm also hoping that 'Iceland Queen' is still preserved at the Horvath Memorial Garden in Ohio, which I had planned on visiting last summer with Kent Krugh, but it didn't happen. But Kent did visit & you might ask him as well. | ||
| Cass Bernstein (Cass) Bug Squisher Username: Cass Post Number: 252 Registered: 01-2006 |
Lots of white Queens. We need to get the label busters workiing on a short list. Ivory Queen HT Fletcher 1954 Ivory Queen Grandiflora Delforge 1965 Snow Queen HP Lambert 1901 Silver Queen HP Paul 1887 Cl. Snow Queen, Cl. HP Lawrenson 1906 Viking Queen is pink 1963, I see it at BBG, different accession ROSNW2 (Rose Garden) White Queen HT Boerner 1958 | ||
| stephen scanniello (Steprose) Supreme Crown Gall ! Username: steprose Post Number: 744 Registered: 01-2006 |
I shall dig deeper, interesting connection.... but meanwhile, the Iceland Queen at BBG was a mystery. There was an issue with the name being correct. One record showed it as "Island Queen". The curator at that time had a strong european accent, could've caused the "Island" to become "Iceland", or vice-a-versa. The rose was once-blooming, pure white, and large hybrid tea-like blooms. More of a pillar type rose (not vigorous) Unfortunately, the records of the provenance of this particular rose were very limited. I'm not sure if it's still there, will check. | ||
| Cass Bernstein (Cass) Bug Squisher Username: Cass Post Number: 251 Registered: 01-2006 |
Stephen, I went on a little lark last week researching Melvin Wyant's purported introduction of Horvath's 'Iceland Queen' in 1935. The description was: LR [Large flowered Rambler] (Horvath, int. Wyant '35) Large.dbl., creamy white. Vig. So I combed all American Rose Annuals from 1934 through 1945 and beyond. There was not one mention of 'Iceland Queen,' either in New Roses Of The World or in Proof of the Pudding. It was not listed in the 1940 Modern Roses II. In those days, there was a nice appendix at the back by breeder and introducer, and 'Iceland Queen' is absent from both Horvath and Wyant roses. It is also noticaby absent from an outstanding review of hardy climbing roses in the 1949 American Rose Annual by a grower in Barrington, Rhode Island, who managed to review about 65 ramblers and climbers grown in his Zone 6 garden, including 7 Horvath roses. No 'Iceland Queen.' Horvath died in 1945. 'Iceland Queen' suddenly appeared with an ex post facto introduction date of 1935 in Modern Rose III, with the description noted above. Wyant went on to introduce two more Horvath roses posthumously, even though, as far as I can tell, he hadn't represented Horvath since 1937 or earlier. Wyant, IIRC, was somehow implicated in the "Colonial White" caper, where he introduced 'Sombreuil LCl' in the late 1950's as Colonial White. Anyone have any nursery catalogs for Melvin White, Rose Specialist, Mentor, Oh? The only reported instance of 'Iceland Queen' is in the accessions of Brooklyn Botanic Garden, provenance unknown, at location ROSC42 (Rose Garden). This is the Stephen part. Any ideas about the identity of the rose growing there? Cass, unindicted co-conspirator |