| Author | Message | ||
     Baldo Villegas (Sactorose) Bug Squisher Username: sactorose Post Number: 65 Registered: 04-2005 |
Jill: I had a discussion with our new botanist about the need of DNA fingerprinting in roses and I saw no interest in his part. It was interesting to see how easy he made it seem. He explained the various processes that could be used and made it sound like it very easy to do. Baldo | ||
| Jill Perry (Oldtearoses) Shovel Pruner Username: oldtearoses Post Number: 15 Registered: 09-2004 |
Siri- I think if you compare stamens and foliage closely, you'll see how different those two roses are. Baldo- Your botanist is welcome to anything he'd like to test from the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden, and I have a few ideas of things I'd like to have tested, but probably not of any commercial value. | ||
| Siri Amrit (Siriamrit) Powdery Mildew Username: Siriamrit Post Number: 8 Registered: 05-2006 |
That's absolutely fascinating... thanks, Malcolm! Any chance you could ever test to see if Mrs Oakley Fisher is a sport or descendant of Lady Hillingdon? I'm curious to know if Lady Hillingdon is really a Tea or an HT. | ||
| Malcolm M Manners (Mmanners) Bug Squisher Username: mmanners Post Number: 22 Registered: 10-2004 |
Ok here's the quick summary: Musks: We tested Graham Thomas's musk from Britain against musks discovered in the USA in Hollywood Cemetery, Elmwood Cemetery, Saluda SC, Monticello, etc. All were virtually identical, strongly suggesting that they all originated from a single clone, and that any tiny variations now present were from random mutation over the years. R. moschata moschata (single), R. moschata plena (double) and 'Temple' musk (very double) do not merit subspecies rank. Early Noisettes: We tested 'Champneys' Pink Cluster' as sold by 5 US nurseries against one of the musk roses and 'Old Blush'. All of the Champneys' tested identical, making us think that the US old-rose nursery industry is at least consistent in what they are calling 'Champneys' Pink Cluster'. Also, the CPC's DNA bands were entirely accounted for by OB and musk, leading us to think that they are the parents of the rose we grow as CPC. This leads us to believe that all three roses are correctly identified. We then tested 'Blush Noisette' against CPC. Almost exactly half of its DNA bands matched, leading us to think that BN as we grow it is an offspring of CPC as we grow it. Of course this does NOT guarantee that either one is correct. But it looks suspiciously likely. Also, all of the BN we tested (several nursery sources) were consistently identical. We also tested a large number of the "found" Noisettes from the Hampton Park Noisette Study Garden, in Charleston SC. All of them showed affinity to CPC, but no two were identical, nor did any of them have even half of CPC's DNA bands, leading us to think that the old Noisettes, found all over the South, are likely mostly bird-sown seedlings, tracing their lineage back to CPC, but likely several generations away now, with other roses hybridized into them. | ||
| Siri Amrit (Siriamrit) Powdery Mildew Username: Siriamrit Post Number: 7 Registered: 05-2006 |
Interesting discussion! Malcolm, can you elaborate on the work you did with the early Noisettes and Musk roses? Did you discover anything that was interesting or useful? | ||
| stephen scanniello (Steprose) Supreme Crown Gall ! Username: steprose Post Number: 443 Registered: 01-2006 |
yes, shameless, but necessary....you can purchase this journal and many others on our website!! stephen | ||
| Malcolm M Manners (Mmanners) Bug Squisher Username: mmanners Post Number: 21 Registered: 10-2004 |
Baldo, We've been doing some DNA work (In Dr. Nancy Morvillo's labs) for about 5 or 6 years, I guess. We did the work on the early noisettes and musk roses. Allison: The problems with plant (as opposed to animal) tissue are: 1. They have cell walls which must be broken down to get the DNA out, and 2. They tend to be loaded with highly oxidizable phenolic compounds that make nasty "gunk" in your sample extract. So you have to have special protocols for getting around those problems, and it has been done pretty well with roses. While nearly any tissue could work, soft, thin-walled tissues are probably best -- young, less-than-fully-expanded leaflets, flower petals, root tips, etc. -- soft tissues. We always use a leaflet from a 1/3-1/2 expanded new leaf. It doesn't take much -- a single leaflet is adequate. If you're interested in the process, the proceedings of the 9th International Conference on Heritage Roses has a series of articles (mostly by me) on the entire subject. The proceedings are available from the Foundation or the Antique Rose Emporium (shameless plugs!). | ||
| Allison Strong (Countess_wildrose) Bug Squisher Username: Countess_wildrose Post Number: 85 Registered: 01-2006 |
Well, I certainly have to concede that work on multiflora is of far greater importance than mere curiosity about FSHE. It would be fabulous if there were a way to prevent some of the dreadful rose diseases out there! | ||
| Baldo Villegas (Sactorose) Bug Squisher Username: sactorose Post Number: 42 Registered: 04-2005 |
Allison: We do a lot of genetic work at our labs especially on insect pests of economic importance. We also do all the testing on Sudden Oak Disease to make sure that the right biotypes of P. ramorum are diagnosed whenever we do the various tests that are taken at commercial nursereies. In the past we contracted genetic testing of weeds of economic importance but hopefully this will change now that we have an in-house expert on what is needed. Right now this is "pie-in-the-sky" as we don't know what research interests this new botanist will pursue. Of course, I will work on him to do some rose stuff whenever I have the chance. Maybe I'll start with Rosa multiflora since that is considered a weed of environmental importance. Again, everything is very preliminary and I wouldn't have an idea of what is needed as far as samples. It seems that each researcher has unique protocols for sampling plant DNA. Baldo | ||
| Allison Strong (Countess_wildrose) Bug Squisher Username: Countess_wildrose Post Number: 84 Registered: 01-2006 |
Baldo, that is the closest to good news I've heard with regard to any current rose genetic testing. PLEASE keep us advised here if and when your botanist begins any OGR testing. Florida Southern is not currently involved in any rose testing, per Dr. Manners response below to my earlier inquiry. I have not been able to learn of anyone, any where in the USA currently doing such tests. I want very much to confirm the identity of the much-argued "Flores Street House Eater" rose. Several folks have scions of it, but, just for authenticity and to prevent any possible errors, if I can get anyone to test this rose, rather than providing material from my own young scion, I'd like to get some specimens direct from the original plant. Which brings me to the question: What type of plant material, and in what quantity, is required for the testing? Would I provide a small fresh cutting, a limb, a growing plant, or what? | ||
| Baldo Villegas (Sactorose) Bug Squisher Username: sactorose Post Number: 41 Registered: 04-2005 |
Malcolm: How long have you been doing PCR-RAPD testing? I knew that you were interested but I didn't know that you were actually doing it on roses. Great to hear it! We just got a new botanist from UC Berkeley who has been doing PCR work with native thistles. He appears to be very interested in OGR's so hopefully I will convince him to do work on some of the roses. Baldo | ||
| Malcolm M Manners (Mmanners) Bug Squisher Username: mmanners Post Number: 18 Registered: 10-2004 |
While Fara is correct that you cannot utterly guarantee parentage, you can be fairly certain. When we test plants for parentage, we use six primers (using PCR-RAPD). The more primers you use, the higher the probability becomes that you're right, and six will hold up in most courts of law in determining paternity. So, for example, when 'Champneys' Pink Cluster' showed, with six primers, that ALL of its DNA bands were matched up by either R. moschata or 'Old Blush' (the purported parents), that gives us a great deal of confidence to say that those two roses are the true parents. I can't prove it, but I'd say I'm 99.9% sure. When you test unrelated or even closely related roses that are not parent/offspring-related, they always show multiple bands that do not match up. So a perfect match is a strong indicator of double parentage. Now, if you're testing a rose against just ONE purported parent, that gets much messier and much less certain, since non-matching bands may or may not belong to the other parent. You really don't have much to go on, there. | ||
| Fara Shimbo (Fara_shimbo) Shovel Pruner Username: Fara Shimbo Post Number: 58 Registered: 04-2006 |
Genetic identification can't determine the parents of anything, plant or animal. What it can do is rule out possibilities. When you have this kind of thing done on horses, for example, what you get back is a paper from the lab that says, "Parentage Not Excluded." It can say who or what is definitely not a parent, but that's all. Still, sometimes that's all you need, in cases where, for example, the questionable parent is one of only two or perhaps three possible alternatives. | ||
| Siri Amrit (Siriamrit) Powdery Mildew Username: Siriamrit Post Number: 6 Registered: 05-2006 |
Would genetic testing be able to determine the parentage of a rose? I keep thinking about the similarities between Lady Hillingdon and Mrs. Oakley Fisher. They seem nearly identical in plant and flower, except for an extra row or two of petals on LH. It makes me wonder if MOF could be a single-flowered sport. If that was so, would it make LH a HT, or MOF a Tea? | ||
| Malcolm M Manners (Mmanners) Bug Squisher Username: mmanners Post Number: 15 Registered: 10-2004 |
Certainly there are countlessly many labs at nearly every college and university in the US who do RAPD-PCR and other PCR work, but to find one that will do custom testing of rose tissue -- that's the problem. It would seem that someone should, but I don't know of one. | ||
| Liesbeth Cooper (Liesbeth) Bug Squisher Username: Liesbeth Post Number: 16 Registered: 07-2005 |
In Bermuda we have been fortunate to have rose leaves analysed in LYON(please note NO 's' at the end of Lyon!), France. I have no idea if the professor would be willing, and have the time, to accept more work. Remember, as Malcolm said, that all it will prove, is whether or not 2 or more roses are identical genetically. It is very important to note the site from where the leaves were taken and if possible the original source, i.e. the provenance. Surely someone, somewhere in the vast USA must be doing this kind of work...It would great if more roses could be compared in this way. | ||
| Malcolm M Manners (Mmanners) Bug Squisher Username: mmanners Post Number: 14 Registered: 10-2004 |
DNA testing can demonstrate that two roses are the same. So if you have a known 'Lamarque' you could have it compared with Flores Street House Eater. Be aware though, that there are at least 2 roses "out there" posing as 'Lamarque' (the California version and the eastern or "Thomasville" version). Now, as to who to get to do the testing -- I'm sorry that I can't recommend a place. We are not currently working on rose DNA at FSC, and I'm not sure who else is. | ||
| Allison Strong (Countess_wildrose) Bug Squisher Username: countess_wildrose Post Number: 50 Registered: 01-2006 |
Can anyone inform me, how to go about having a rose tested genetically to determine its identification? That "Flores Street House Eater" question still nags like a sore tooth. I believe it is Lamarque. I would love to prove it! |