| Author | Message | ||
     stephen scanniello (Steprose) Supreme Crown Gall ! Username: steprose Post Number: 916 Registered: 01-2006 |
thanks. publishers think that there is no need for such a book... | ||
| William Cartwright (Bill) Shovel Pruner Username: Bill Post Number: 74 Registered: 06-2006 |
And I recommended it to a woman I met on Gardenweb, who got it and wrote back that "A Year of Roses" was her new favorite rose book. I just hope you have a book in the works on the art of pruning. You have a gift...you must share it. Bill | ||
| stephen scanniello (Steprose) Supreme Crown Gall ! Username: steprose Post Number: 914 Registered: 01-2006 |
thanks Kathleen.. stephen | ||
| Kathleen Lapergola (Roselady44) Shovel Pruner Username: roselady44 Post Number: 118 Registered: 10-2004 |
Stephen, speaking of your book "A Year of Roses" I lent it to someone who is starting a new rose garden and he was thrilled to read it. He sent me a email to say he ordered one for himself. He found it has so much helpful information for someone starting out with a new rose garden. So there you go!!!!! | ||
| stephen scanniello (Steprose) Supreme Crown Gall ! Username: steprose Post Number: 911 Registered: 01-2006 |
lost track of this one... thanks for the kind words about A Year of Roses. too bad the publisher doesn't know how to sell garden books. I would recommend stripping the leaves of all modern roses; but I'm not sure if stripping of European ogr's would help them survive the long long season of your neck of the woods if they don't have enough chill nights (or is it chill factors....do a search on this, Ron Robertson gave an excellent presentation on an older thread) | ||
| William Cartwright (Bill) Shovel Pruner Username: Bill Post Number: 73 Registered: 06-2006 |
Now that Stephen is back, I'm hoping to draw him into this discussion. Bill | ||
| Jeri Jennings (Jeri) Supreme Crown Gall ! Username: Jeri Post Number: 716 Registered: 01-2006 |
You know Jackie -- I've begun to think that if something like that is to be obtained, it will have to be created by those of us who live in these climates. Like you, my husband and I had to learn by trial and error -- by planting the WRONG roses, and watching them fail -- planting the right ones, and seeing them succeed. The hardest lesson was the one about pruning, because it went against everything we'd been taught. I think we need a scientist. :-) Jeri | ||
| Jackie Schmidt (Jackieschmidt) Powdery Mildew Username: JackieSchmidt Post Number: 6 Registered: 04-2007 |
I have a question relating to this topic - is there any rose rating list that you know of that rates roses for warm climates (humid vs non humid), vs others for cold climates, etc? The Am Rose Assoc rating system, which seems to use the "lowest common denominator" logic - i.e., roses are rated well only if they grow OK in ALL climates, seems appropriate for large commercial growers, but not for home gardeners, who usually only garden in one climate at a time! I live in Marin County in No CA, and I agree with Jeri in the latest post below - my garden is full of roses that LIKE our warm (zone 9) climate, and they DO NOT like to be hard pruned/defoliated in the winter. These include hybrid musks, hybrid multifloras, teas, chinas, polyanthas, tea noisettes, & banksies. Our few very old hybrid teas (which I keep around only because they were planted by my husbands ancestors in the early 20th century) do need to be hard pruned in the winter, and are weak, & disease prone anyway in this climate. I understand that collectors would want to have a way to trick cold winter happy roses such as old European types into dormancy here, but to say that you have to do that to all roses in warm climates is not correct - just grow the types that LIKE warm climates - there are lots of lovely old ones. Anyway, I have not been able to find a rose rating system that does not penalize roses for not being "winter hardy" - is there one anyone knows about? After all, millions of gardeners live & garden in warm climates, and even if you just restrict that to Medditerranean climates, you get Southern Europe, the Northern West Coast of the US, and lots of South Africa and Australia & New Zealand. I have learned by trial and error to stick to the types of roses that have survived in my garden for decades, or that were surviving in my neighborhood, which is full of old Victorian houses, but it would be nice to have a rating system. | ||
| Jeri Jennings (Jeri) Supreme Crown Gall ! Username: Jeri Post Number: 712 Registered: 01-2006 |
Here in my part of Southern California, we have learned by doing. We grow only a few modern roses, and NO Northern Europeans (which do not thrive here.) Many of our roses suffer if they are pruned in January. This is particularly true of Teas and Chinas and (to some extent Noisettes). These "Evergreen" roses, which carry their energy in their twiggy growth, have little to fall back on if that is cut away in the winter. They fare better if "pruning" is a removal of old and truly dead growth, done in the warm summer months. Repeated winter pruning of those roses, in this climate, has proven to be an open invitation to downy mildew. The nice thing is, they do bloom right through winter, and are none the worse for it in the spring and summer. Jeri Jennings | ||
| William Cartwright (Bill) Shovel Pruner Username: Bill Post Number: 58 Registered: 06-2006 |
So I was just starting to re-read Stephen Scanniello's fantastic "A Year of Roses"...which on the first go-round got "consumed" in a feverish all-night marathon session...and I run into thus (abridged) on page 13 [January]: "If you've moved to warmer climates...you can't escape...pruning your roses [in January]...where freezes are rare and the sun is warm. Your roses mabe in full bloom right now. However, many of your roses could bloom themselves t death if they don't get a peroid of dormancy, or rest. "Prune all the plants AND remove all remaining foliage at this time. This creates a dormant rosebush. You'll be rewarded for this "forced" dormancy in a month or so with a new crop of roses. So start pruning." Now I'm mildly red-faced that "my idea" was er...uh..."assimilated" (flat out stolen?) from a book I'd just read. D'oh! At least if I'm going to steal ideas, I steal from the best! I guess the one outstanding question not answered in Stephen's book, is whether a pruning/leaf-stripping regiment could extend the "viability zone" of European once-bloomers. Stephen are you out there? Any thoughts? And sorry mate...not till this morning did I realize my question must have been planted directly as a result of reading this passage in your book. To anyone who has not read "A Year of Roses", this book has a myriad of ideas ripe for "expropriation." A must read! Cheers. Bill | ||
| William Cartwright (Bill) Shovel Pruner Username: Bill Post Number: 56 Registered: 06-2006 |
Wow Ann...I was just thinking of pulling a few leaves...not chopping my roses into pieces...but if ya think it would help ;-) | ||
| ann peck (Anntn6b) Bug Squisher Username: anntn6b Post Number: 234 Registered: 01-2006 |
Anecdotal story from another direction: We salvaged "Meemaw's Smoke House Rose" in May. It was supposed to be yellow, lived in heavy shade, hadn't bloomed in years. It was bloom-budless, and kept few if any leaves as it was chopped apart before the road excavators moved in. We left a lot of roots behind and ended up with four pieces of the original. It bloomed late July that year with big semidouble pink blooms: Tausendschoen. (Since then it has bloom mid May.) In that case improved culture was enough to instigate bloom. | ||
| ann peck (Anntn6b) Bug Squisher Username: anntn6b Post Number: 233 Registered: 01-2006 |
" what happens if you pluck (or otherwise remove) the leaves of a rose, to simulate natural dormancy." What we've done is hit the roses with dormant strength lime-sulphur twice (about two week interval) to get the teas and noisettes and chinas (as well as the moderns) to drop their leaves. Often the leaves would hang on until spring...with their complement of overwintering fungal maladies. This hit is done before bud swell in mid Jan to late Feb here; in Nashville the time is mid December, their growth starts that much earlier. This might work pre-solstice for the Gallicas,etc. This doesn't reset any clocks on the Teas Chinas or Noisettes, it just makes them healthier. By the time we do this, the Gallicas etc have already neatly dropped their leaves. Bill, once upon a time, I was told by many learned and esteemed rose show judges that I couldn't grow teas, chinas OR noisettes in my part of the world. It's only because I wanted to see what they were and was willing to dig up their tiny, pitiful carcasses each fall that I even tried some. This pix in another thread shows a three foot tall probable china surrounded by the "puny and pitiful tea roses" that I tried against recommendations. http://www.heritagerosefoundation.org/discus/messages/257/1047.html?1139881138 You'll never know, until you try. | ||
| William Cartwright (Bill) Shovel Pruner Username: Bill Post Number: 55 Registered: 06-2006 |
****Back to Bill's question -- what happens if you pluck (or otherwise remove) the leaves of a rose, to simulate natural dormancy. I'm sorry to say that I don't know. I do know that that seems to help with low-chill apples in Florida, and if a rose were truly collecting chill units in the fruit tree sense, maybe it would help there, as well. But I've never heard of anyone doing that experiment. There's a challenge for you all in marginal Gallica/Alba/Centifolia climates! But to be valid, you'll need to leave some plants (or maybe a branch of each plant tested) with the leaves on, for comparison*** Hmmm....if only we knew the chair of a University horticultural science department who was really "into" roses, and who had a lot of student "volunteers" ready to conduct experiments ;-) In all seriousness, I'm really surprised there isn't at least "anecdotal" (if not scientific) information on the issue of "forcing dormancy" by stripping leaves...and whether that was a positive for Gallicas, etc. growing "out of zone". Someone must have tried this, no? I do thank you, Dr. Manners, for the explaination of chill hours. While I needed to read the post a dozen times to achieve full comprehension, I now know more about the cycles of stone-fruit that I would have ever imagined. Pretty cool! As Kent said, I'd sign up for one of your classes anytime. For now, know I appreciate the "education" online. Thank you! I'm still thinking SOMEONE out there has been "Gallica-mad" enough to think of defoliating their bushes in warm zones...or heard of some other nut who's tried it. Yes? Peace to all, Bill | ||
| Malcolm M Manners (Mmanners) Bug Squisher Username: Mmanners Post Number: 95 Registered: 10-2004 |
Ok I realize I'm not done posting yet. I should hesitate before hitting "post message." Back to Bill's question -- what happens if you pluck (or otherwise remove) the leaves of a rose, to simulate natural dormancy. I'm sorry to say that I don't know. I do know that that seems to help with low-chill apples in Florida, and if a rose were truly collecting chill units in the fruit tree sense, maybe it would help there, as well. But I've never heard of anyone doing that experiment. There's a challenge for you all in marginal Gallica/Alba/Centifolia climates! But to be valid, you'll need to leave some plants (or maybe a branch of each plant tested) with the leaves on, for comparison. I do still have a massive old Alba Semiplena, which I will try to remember to do that on, next winter. The problem here, though, is that in some winters we get almost no net chill units, so if it didn't work for me, that still doesn't mean it wouldn't work for someone who lives in a slightly higher-chill area. | ||
| Malcolm M Manners (Mmanners) Bug Squisher Username: Mmanners Post Number: 94 Registered: 10-2004 |
My las post should have ended with "until it warms up." And then I might add that that fact is used to great advantage by bare-root nurseries, which dig their stock in the fall, store it in cold-storage all winter, and ship out of storage. As long as the trees are held in the low 30s, they remain fully dormant, even though they will have accumulated way more chilling than they needed. But then they're popped into the shipping box and mailed, and when they reach the customer, they are bursting into new growth, and the customer is delighted. | ||
| Malcolm M Manners (Mmanners) Bug Squisher Username: Mmanners Post Number: 93 Registered: 10-2004 |
Kent, As with us humans, decisions are not quite the same as actions. The decision to grow doesn't mean actually to grow, which is, as you suggest, temperature-dependent. But if the decision has been made, the next time there is a warm spell, growth will begin. Remember that the decision would never be made during a sub-freezing period, though, since it is made when the chill units balance reaches the required level, and chill is not collected below 32F. Still, it is quite possible to get enough chill, but if the temperature stays in the 30s for a period of time, the plant will not actually commence growth. | ||
| Kent Krugh (Kkrugh) Board Administrator Username: kkrugh Post Number: 85 Registered: 09-2004 |
Malcolm, I want to enroll in your fruit culture class! May I ask a follow up. Midway you state: "Once the correct number of chill units has been acquired, the tree "decides" to come out of dormancy. Buds swell as growth begins, and cold hardiness is quickly lost." After accumulating the proper number of chill units, the tree "decides" to come out of dormancy regardless of the temperature? If the temperature is below 32F, wouldn't the tree remain dormant until it warms up a bit? Thanks for taking the time to educate us. Kent Krugh | ||
| Fara Shimbo (Fara_shimbo) Bug Squisher Username: fara_shimbo Post Number: 217 Registered: 04-2006 |
Malcolm, that was fascinating! Thanks so much! Bill, thanks for your insight as well. | ||
| Malcolm M Manners (Mmanners) Bug Squisher Username: Mmanners Post Number: 92 Registered: 10-2004 |
Bill, You're close. Let me enlarge on that. There are several models of chilling that have been published, and one of those says one unit is gained for every hour between 32 and 45 F. However, many (most?) plants will accumulate chilling at higher temps, perhaps up to about 60 F, but it takes more than an hour to gain a unit. The warmer it gets, the less chilling will accumulate per hour of time. Somewhere around 60F (in peaches), counting stops entirely. Then around 65 F, chill units begin to be lost; the warmer it gets, the faster they will be subtracted away. As Bill says, no units are collected below 32F. Think of it as a bank account. We're making deposits (gaining chilling) at cool temperatures, and withdrawals (losing chilling) at warm temps. The tree has some predetermined, genetically programmed number it's going for -- perhaps I've decided that I'll go car shopping when I have accumulated $5000 for my down payment. In the tree's case, when it reaches the magic balance, it will declare that spring has sprung, and burst into growth. In a climate like ours in central Florida, it is common to gain a few units at night, then lose a few the following day, as the temp rises to 80 or so. So we ride the temperature rollercoaster all winter, and just hope we end up with a net balance of chill units that will be high enough. Back to another of Bill's questions -- entry into dormancy. Again using peach as an example, the initial change is daylength triggered. In the fall, with shorter days (actually longer nights are what do it) the tree begins the process of leaf senescence. With the right mix of chilly weather, the senescent leaves may turn bright shades of red, orange, and yellow, and tourists will drive hundreds of miles to see the spectacle. But as far as I know, the process of triggering senescence is NOT temperature-dependant; just the degree of pretty fall colors once senescence has begun. (THIS IS THE FIRST POINT AT WHICH ROSES SEEM TO BE DIFFERENT FROM PEACHES; at least here, we never see daylength-triggered leaf senescence on our roses) Senescence then triggers leaf abscission (falling off), as the senescent leaves generate ethylene gas, causing development of a separation layer at the base of the petiole. Once the leaves are off, the tree enters "shallow dormancy" (a.k.a. shallow rest, light dormancy, light rest, depending on whose vocabulary you choose to use). At that point the tree is irrevocably committed to winter dormancy. No amount of long days, warm temps, water, fertilizer, pruning, etc., will convince it to come back out of that dormancy. Either it will receive the chill units it needs, or it will die. Peaches are utterly unforgiving; apples somewhat more forgiving, and blueberries and pecans quite forgiving of the wrong number of chill units, so there is variation among species. (HERE IS WHERE ROSES AGAIN DIFFER -- ALMOST ANY ROSE CAN BE FORCED INTO NEW GROWTH AT ANY TIME, BY CHANGING THE CLIMATE CONDITIONS. I SAY THAT -- I REALIZE I DON'T HAVE PROOF FOR ALL NORTHERN TYPES; BUT I'M NOT AWARE OF AN EXCEPTION) Once in shallow dormancy, the tree (now leafless) has also gained a few degrees of cold-hardiness. Whereas a hard frost could have killed it a week earlier, it's now fine down into the low- to mid-20s at least. It remains in shallow dormancy until the first actual freeze occurs. It appears to be the formation of ice crystals in the tree that cause the next trigger, which puts the tree into "deep dormancy" (a.k.a. deep rest). Within 24 hours, the tree becomes fully cold-hardy (-25 or so for a peach, -40 for an apple or maple, absolute zero for a birch or alder). At that point the tree begins to collect chill units. The counting is done by each dormant bud, individually. No chilling message is passed up or down the stem, even one node. This makes for fun experiments, where you grow a dormant tree in a greenhouse in the north, in winter, with one branch sticking outdoors through a hole in the greenhouse wall. In spring, the buds outside the glass, which have been chilled, burst into growth right on time. Inside the glass, just one node down, the buds remain tightly dormant. Once the correct number of chill units has been acquired, the tree "decides" to come out of dormancy. Buds swell as growth begins, and cold hardiness is quickly lost. Another big difference between fruit trees and roses is that fruit trees often make dormant flower buds, and dormant vegetative buds at different nodes. On a peach, they are visibly different, and you can easily predict which will do what when it next grows. With a rose, all buds look alike, and all of them are vegetative. It is only after the rose makes its first growth flush of leaves, that it will make flowers at the terminus of that branch. That's anatomically quite different from the fruit trees. And here's where our current discussion of chilling comes into play -- in a climate like ours, Albas and Gallicas tend to grow normally in the spring, but those new branches terminate in a dormant, vegetative bud, just like second-flush growth would do in the north. For some reason they did not initiate flower buds on that growth. We observe that they tend to make flower buds only in areas where they have received the equivalent of winter chilling. But it's the buds out at the terminus of that new spring growth where the flower buds would form. And here's where I have a problem in comparing it to deciduous fruit trees -- I can't think of a parallel example among the fruits, where the dormant bud grows vegetatively, then flowers. Well, yes I can, now that I think of it -- pecans, hickories, and walnuts do that with their female flowers. But they seem always to make female flowers, regardless of chilling received, so again it's not quite parallel. Fara -- as for what chill units actually "are," at the physical or chemical level, no one knows. They are a "memory" of how long the bud has been cold. Much research has gone into determining exactly how the plant counts them, and how the recording is made -- so far as I know, to no avail, so far. There are some characteristic changes in hormone and carbohydrate levels that occur in buds throughout the winter, but those changes do not account for the rather precise chill-unit counting that is going on. Well, sorry for the lecture -- it is one of my favorite lectures to give in my fruit culture classes, and since fruit tree flowering physiology is my educational background area, I have always found it fascinating. | ||
| William Cartwright (Bill) Shovel Pruner Username: Bill Post Number: 54 Registered: 06-2006 |
Fara, from what I've gleaned, for things such as "stone fruit" (peaches, plums, apricots, etc.) "chilling hours" count when winter temps drop below 45 (7 C) BUT DO NOT DROP below 32 (0 C). Hours below 32 don't count towards "chilling". From the best of my understanding, there is no absolute analogy (that's been between "scientifically" established) between the "chilling" units for stone fruit and the needs of roses. We (speaking of us rose growers) tend to use "chill hours" because the weather data is out there (to serve fruit growers) and it looks like the best (only) thing we have going. Does it not like there would have been research in this area? Malcolm (or others) please correct any of this if I have it wrong, as I'd hate to spread "mis-information". | ||
| Fara Shimbo (Fara_shimbo) Bug Squisher Username: fara_shimbo Post Number: 216 Registered: 04-2006 |
Malcolm, could you please explain "chilling units" for those of us whose brains have stalled? | ||
| William Cartwright (Bill) Shovel Pruner Username: Bill Post Number: 53 Registered: 06-2006 |
Ann, I think I have the perfect spot for our "Alba Maxima". Morning light, dappled mid-afternoon light, and then filtered protection from the strong afternoon sun. And it can get as big as it wants! More than any other rose...I have a big emotional investment in trying to pull this off. We shall see. Bill | ||
| William Cartwright (Bill) Shovel Pruner Username: Bill Post Number: 52 Registered: 06-2006 |
Thanks for the clarification Malcolm. I was having one of those: "who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes" moments ;-) And, franky while I was inclined to trust one of the world's leading authorities on roses (that would be you) I was experiencing a bit of "cognitive dissonance". Anyway... back to my question. We've established that "European" once bloomers DO lose their leaves in far Northern lattitudes and DO NOT lose their leaves in places such as coastal Southern California and Florida. And, from what I understand, in "evergreen" situations Gallicas, Albas, Damasks, Centifolias and the like, either grow for some years and then begin to decline ("grow themselves to death") or they just fail to bloom. Or in marginal areas lose their blooms in the heat. What I'm wondering, is whether manually defoliating (stripping the leaves) a "once-bloomer" could give the plant a "forced dormany" which might add to its long term heath, and perhaps its ability to bloom? Obviously this would not help with the "blooming in the heat" timing problem, but otherwise might it make the plant viable in a situation it might otherwise not fare well in? Has this been explored? Or is it sheer madness on my part to engage in this sort of thinking??? Also, I'm still not entirely following what triggers "dormancy" (in once blooming roses) in Northern lattitudes. Or is "dormancy" the wrong term? Is it the shortening days, or the dropping temps, or a complex interaction between the two? Regardless of the cause of "dormancy", would a rose stripped of foliage go into the same sort of positive rest even if the cause of defoliation was artificial. Most especially I desire to grow "Alba Maxima" for my wife. She has fallen in love with this rose beyond any other, and I'm right there with her. I've been pleased to see "Alba Semi-Plena" has worked in a warm winter climate. So its not as if I have "too much time on my hands" but for a few special roses the chore of plucking them clean of foliage would be worth it to me IF DOING SO would promote the rose's health. Thanks for indulging my constant questions. I do hope I'm not being tedious. Cheers, Bill | ||
| Malcolm M Manners (Mmanners) Bug Squisher Username: Mmanners Post Number: 91 Registered: 10-2004 |
Sorry, when I say roses don't lose their leaves, I mean here in Florida. Yes, they lose their leaves in cold-winter areas, but those that I've grown have not undergone the standard senescence/color/abscission based on daylength (regardless of temperature) that deciduous trees do. Ann has seen it with Centifolias and some Albas; I've never grown a Centifolia, but have not seen it on the Albas I've grown (Semiplena, Felicite Parmentier, Celestial, Koenigin von Danemark, and the found "Ethel Yount's White"). If a rose does lose its leaves due to daylength, then I guess it could follow the exact pattern of a fruit tree; but a rose that does not naturally abscise leaves like that is working under a different set of rules, so the "standard" models of chilling, based on peaches or apples, is not likely to work very well in predicting what a rose will do. | ||
| ann peck (Anntn6b) Bug Squisher Username: anntn6b Post Number: 232 Registered: 01-2006 |
From zone 6 someyears, zone 7 other years. Here, gallicas do loose their leaves over winter as do Damasks, Centifolias and Albas. Some years when modern roses are still blooming the Damasks Centifolias and Albas drop their leaves regardless of temperature. But this is fairly close to the solstice. This past year we had a colder early December than usual and even the HTs, teas and chinas and noisettes dropped their leaves, only to regrow some of them in January. As usual, R. x fortuniana and R. laevigata put on their major growth spurts through the coldest days of winter. All of the above bloom well for me. And all have bloomed every year in the decade or so that we've had them here. But the one unmentionable factor here is that even though the G, C, D, and A will bloom, when that bloom happens and temps are in the eighties and nineties, the length of the bloom period will be short (as in less than a week.) Sometimes, I miss seeing this mass of bloom, because the petals can't take the sun, dry or wet humidity (depending on the year) and near mid-summer-in-southern-europe conditions that they are socked with. Among the longer bloomers (insert your joke of choice here) are the Albas. R. alba semi-plena has been in bloom for three weeks. I think Alba maxima has been in bloom (good bloom, not puny a bloom here and another way over there) for 2 1/2 weeks. I'm wondering if half day (afternoon shade) would be better. Oh, and the real winner in the bloom sweepstakes among the non-species once bloomers: the rose called Banshee. Going on three weeks. | ||
| William Cartwright (Bill) Shovel Pruner Username: Bill Post Number: 51 Registered: 06-2006 |
Roses don't lose their leaves? I'm gobsmacked. I've rarely seen snow, much less lived with it, but I thought "European" roses lost their leaves in winter. At least where winters are "real". Am I that far off in my understanding? | ||
| Malcolm M Manners (Mmanners) Bug Squisher Username: Mmanners Post Number: 90 Registered: 10-2004 |
We grew some Gallicas and Albas for several years in Lakeland Florida. They never went dormant in the sense of losing their leaves, but they didn't bloom either (except Alba Semiplena and Felicite Parmentier, both of which bloom just fine here, and surely would for you too). In any case, when people talk about chilling units, realize that roses may use something of that sort, but they are NOT using them in the same sense as a fruit tree would. If it were a peach or apple, it would lose its leaves in the fall, then count chill units until it decided spring had sprung, then grow again. Failure to get chilled enough would result in the tree's death. On the other hand, a rose does NOT lose its leaves. It may stop growing for a bit, but it is not a true dormancy, and it will grow again when the days are long enough, regardless of chillinng. It appears, in the case of roses, that it is differentiation of flower buds that is chill-related, rather than the actual process of coming out of dormancy. So while there may be similarities, it is not the same physiological process. | ||
| William Cartwright (Bill) Powdery Mildew Username: Bill Post Number: 50 Registered: 06-2006 |
This question is quite “out of season” but some of the discussions I’ve been involved in here revolving around the inadvisability of growing “European” once-bloomers in warm winter climates, has set my mind to pondering….why? From what I understand, lack of chill means the plant never goes dormant. And, with this lack of dormancy, roses which require "rest" essentially grow themselves to death in the “evergreen” conditions. But, I wonder, what if a faithful gardener were to strip all the foliage off a rose once the weather turned “cold”, could dormancy be induced? Would a plant without foliage be forced to rest? Or does the whole rose (roots included) actually need to get physically cold? In my particular situation, we get (to the best of my estimation) about 350-400 hours of “chill” during our winters. A situation very similar to Huntington Gardens in San Marino. And, they do grow quite a few Albas, Damasks, Centifolias, and Moss roses. And so the question plagues my mind. Perhaps I should just resign my self to the idea that “Duchesse de Montebello” is not a rose I should even dream of planting…but if I could…I would! Or maybe I should just stick with TEAS, CHINAS, and NOISETTES??? Any thoughts? Bill |