| Author | Message | ||
     Allison Strong (Countess_wildrose) Bug Squisher Username: Countess_wildrose Post Number: 161 Registered: 01-2006 |
Thanks Stephen- you have helped me feel a bit better that I am on the right track with what I have to work with for the time being. We used the Osmocote commercial grade (10 month formulation) in the springtime before the barrier cloth was placed. And since then I have just used Miracle Grow a time or two. I use the hose end sprayer, and then after I'm through adding the Miracle Grow, I go behind it with clear water to help make sure it gets down past the mulch and the barrier cloth into the soil. I have never tried the Mills products, but as much as I hear of them, I ought to give them a try- will buy some for the springtime. If the roses seem to need more than what we are doing now, I might have to grit my teeth for the lost labor and expense of putting in that barrier cloth, ... it seemed a good idea at the time, you know? ... (how many times in life have I said THAT??? lol) | ||
| stephen scanniello (Steprose) Supreme Crown Gall ! Username: steprose Post Number: 651 Registered: 01-2006 |
well, I'm still for removing or not using the cloth. However, the cloth must allow moisture to pass thru,, so use any water soluble fertilizer. For instance, Miracle gro, mills easy feed. Perhaps the slow release will get thru, too. In that case use osmocote or something similar. if you start over again, and still use the cloth, build up the organic content of the sandy soil to help in increasing the retention level. Then put down the cloth. | ||
| Allison Strong (Countess_wildrose) Bug Squisher Username: Countess_wildrose Post Number: 160 Registered: 01-2006 |
Just took a look at this thread for the first time in a while, and I hope you will forgive me for changing the direction of conversation? Several types of weed barrier are discussed here: the barrier cloth material (DuPont brand is the one we bought), the traditional lasagna garden approach with newspaper or cardboard, and even cotton bed sheets. We have had Excellent results in banning weeds and grasses (yeah, even Bermuda!) with the DuPont barrier cloth. We put it down this spring and covered it with 4" of hardwood mulch. But here is my concern now. The stuff is Not biodegradable like newspaper or a sheet, and it has a 20 year warranty, so I expect that it will be around for a long time to come. Since it's so durable, the old mulch, instead of being incorporated into the composting soil, will likely have to be shoveled off the cloth in a couple of years, and replaced with brand new mulch. Perhaps I could look at that as one of the prices I have to pay for the superior weed control? But here's my greater concern: fertilizing the roses is now more problematic. Granular stuff that must be worked in to the soil is now next to impossible- the labor intensity of pulling back the mulch and barrier cloth from around 200+ roses in order to scratch some ammendments and fertilizers into the soil surface is just not feasible for us. What liquid, spray-on type fertilizers can you recommend that will not burn the leaves when applied, and how much will it take to get down through the 4" of mulch and the barrier cloth? Or is there some form of powdered fertilizer that I can sprinkle on top of the mulch, and just drench the he%% out of it with a garden hose? I do like the folar feeding of Neptune, and alfalfa stink-juice, but, I wonder if there is something more concentrated we could try for our sandy soil which doesn't hold the nutrients well enough? Bottom line, I am beginnning to regret the DuPont fabric if I cannot now fertilize the roses well enough. We have a drip irrigation system, but the installer did not like the fertilizer dispensing components that are available out there- he thought they tend to gunk up and not work very efficiently. Any thoughts ? Thanks! Allison | ||
| William Cartwright (Bill) Powdery Mildew Username: Bill Post Number: 14 Registered: 06-2006 |
Cass, I thought eucalyptus (including the litter) was allelopathic. A quick Google search lead to a great number of articles which suggests it is. I know I've had a leading "California Native" nursery warn against using it as mulch. So without more information, I'd remain cautious about eucalyptus. | ||
| Cass Bernstein (Cass) Bug Squisher Username: Cass Post Number: 181 Registered: 01-2006 |
Tiny point: eucalyptus mulch is just fine. The Golden Gate Park Arboretum has used it for years. Tree service chipped trimmings make the best mulch because the mulch includes leaves and other green matter. And fyi, if a steep slope needs to be mulched, the best solution we've found is gorilla hair, aka shredded bark, covered with your favorite mulch, whether tree service trimmings, landscape bark or another kind. The gorilla hair itself is relatively ineffective for weed suppression, but it does cling to both the slope and the mulch. Without it, mulch quickly slips down a hill. | ||
| Linda Buzzell-Saltzman (Linda) Bug Squisher Username: linda Post Number: 25 Registered: 01-2006 |
Oh no, we have it in our lawn! Plus kikuyu grass which loves to "dive" underground and pop up elsewhere... | ||
| Jeri Jennings (Jeri) Rowdy Rosarian Username: Jeri Post Number: 456 Registered: 01-2006 |
Well, there is also the possibility that no one planted the stuff on your property. Here, some fool brought it home from the Navy base and planted it. Free lawn. | ||
| Linda Buzzell-Saltzman (Linda) Bug Squisher Username: linda Post Number: 24 Registered: 01-2006 |
I've been trying to figure out why we don't have too bad a problem with Bermuda grass spreading from our (smallish) lawns to the beds and borders (thank goodness!). So far what I've come up with: 1)we don't have drip or automatic irrigation, don't do flooding of the beds, only hand spot watering in basins around the roses and fruit trees, so there are dry areas between the lawn and the highly moist areas. 2) We mow with a reel hand mower (we try to adhere to a fossil-free, low-noise approach to gardening), which is pretty gentle and doesn't spew pieces of Bermuda all over the place although we leave the trimmings on the lawn and 3)we try to keep the edges of the lawn trimmed and a sort of ditch between the grass and the beds and 4)we don't water the grass much in July-Sept, when it naturally turns golden here in CAlif -- so we let it... We also do periodic weeding, especially when we've had a wet spring like this year. So (fingers crossed) no big BG problems right now at least... | ||
| Jeri Jennings (Jeri) Rowdy Rosarian Username: Jeri Post Number: 454 Registered: 01-2006 |
Jeri, have you tried using cardboard or a thick layer of newspaper under a heavy mulch? *** Yes. Jeri | ||
| Diane Watson (Llpnut) Bug Squisher Username: llpnut Post Number: 41 Registered: 01-2006 |
I use a combination of these methods, I use cardboard and newspaper and mulch and flooziefop and handpulling (no damage from Grass B Gon or Fertilome's generic to roses, ever) and Nay suggests not letting your mower blow bermuda grass clippings into the gardens as bermuda will sprout... but one suggestion is 'state of mind' where I live...eradicating Bermuda is, as Jeri says, not a one time thing...I expect to have to pull out, spray, cover, and dig up grass encroaching flowers on a consistent basis. Not a 'one shot deal' (hope that phrase isn't trademarked by some chemical company  ) | ||
| William Cartwright (Bill) Powdery Mildew Username: Bill Post Number: 12 Registered: 06-2006 |
Jeri, have you tried using cardboard or a thick layer of newspaper under a heavy mulch? I find this is pretty effective. | ||
| Jeri Jennings (Jeri) Rowdy Rosarian Username: Jeri Post Number: 453 Registered: 01-2006 |
Mulching (even heavy mulching) will not discourage Bermuda Grass. Weed Cloth does not discourage Bermuda Grass. Our Bermuda Grass laughed at Roundup, in the days when we used that. It doubled over laughing at FloozieFlop. Like Michael and Ann, we have had to dig some roses up in the winter and remove the stuff. It's a horror. I detest Bermuda Grass almost as much as I detest Iceplant and the Western Pocket Gopher, and MUCH more than I detest Morning Glory. Jeri Jennings | ||
| Linda Buzzell-Saltzman (Linda) Bug Squisher Username: linda Post Number: 23 Registered: 01-2006 |
Good tip about calling the tree trimmers, Bill. We've done that in the past with great success. Even the eucalyptus chips don't seems to be a problem in our garden. Don't know about walnut. | ||
| William Cartwright (Bill) Powdery Mildew Username: Bill Post Number: 11 Registered: 06-2006 |
Fortuitous timing, as the mid-day heat has just driven me inside...but not before I weeded my herb garden, then covered the any bareground with a thick layer of newspaper and then covered that with a 4 inch layer of redwood chips. I agree wholeheartedly with Linda that heavy mulching, especially with a layer of cardboard or newspaper, is not only going to be more effective than weed killers, but also much friendlier to nature and your own well-being. One tip. I wnated to re-much large areas this season so I called the service that trims my trees to see what they do with their woodchips. I learned they pay to dump them and would be more than happy to dump as much as I wanted at my house for free. I was hoping they might have a pine or a cedar in the near future...and then said "I don't suppose you ever remove a redwood tree...do you?". Turns out they were removing a big redwood the next day (sadly to make room for more development) and I ended up with a truckload of first-class mulch. At least the tree didn't end up in a landfill. If you do use tree chips I know Walnut and Euclayptus should be avoided. Good luck, Bill | ||
| Michael Hampton (Mlh5953) Powdery Mildew Username: mlh5953 Post Number: 9 Registered: 02-2006 |
Baldo, Nutsedge is another weed grass that will push its way through the layers of my Lasagna mulching. In the past I’ve sprayed it with Round-Up, but it only turned the top of the plant brown, but never killed it. So I ended up having to pull it by hand anyway. Thanks, Mike | ||
| Michael Hampton (Mlh5953) Powdery Mildew Username: mlh5953 Post Number: 8 Registered: 02-2006 |
Ann, I too have had to resort to digging up plants and untangle the Bermuda grass. For the past couple of years I’ve been able to keep up with it, but this year has been a bit of a challenge due to some unforeseen circumstances. Hopefully it won’t come to that again. Thanks, Mike | ||
| Michael Hampton (Mlh5953) Powdery Mildew Username: mlh5953 Post Number: 7 Registered: 02-2006 |
Kaye, I appreciate you sharing that. Maybe you get a better rate of kill because there’s more surface area for the fluazifop to contact. Thanks, Mike | ||
| Michael Hampton (Mlh5953) Powdery Mildew Username: mlh5953 Post Number: 6 Registered: 02-2006 |
Linda, I’ve never considered an old cotton bed sheet as a mulch mat. Of the things I’ve tried in the past, the heavy weed cloth seems to work best. With a heavy covering of mulch, it shades out the Bermuda grass so well that it seems to go dormant. So far I’m not too impressed with the Lasagna method’s ability to suppress Bermuda. Though I bet it works well in the cooler climates. That said, I was impressed with the number of fat earthworms I found living under it. Thanks, Mike | ||
| Baldo Villegas (Sactorose) Bug Squisher Username: sactorose Post Number: 55 Registered: 04-2005 |
Michael: Long ago I used to have a huge infestation of Bermuda grass (BG) in the rose garden. I used this product and other like grass herbicides. At first I was very careful not to spray to close into the roses but then I noticed that these grass herbicides did not affect broadleaf plants such as roses and after a while I even sprayed grasses growing around the crown of my roses. I did this repeatedly and I WAS NEVER ABLE TO GET the Bermuda grass under control. After a while I just talked to my neighbors and asked them if they could help me control BG and now I go into my neighbor's yards and keep their BG in check. The only way I have been able to control BG is to dig it out and periodic monitoring of all the rose beds for any potential plants growing from seed! I do this several times per year and my BG problems in my rose beds are a thing of the past. My biggest weed challenge right now is nutsedge as I try not to use any herbicides in my property. I spot spray with a couple of herbicides for nutsedge and constantly hand pull plants. It seems like a loosing battle at times. | ||
| ann peck (Anntn6b) Bug Squisher Username: anntn6b Post Number: 142 Registered: 01-2006 |
We've also used fluazifop on beds with Hybrid Perpetuals and Portlands and some of the Portlands were yearling ownroots. We've had no damage symtoms from its use. For some roses, the (shudder) easiest approach has been in winter to dig the rose up, wash the roots and pull out the grass (both Bermuda and Johnson, the other grass from Hades) thoroughly and replant elsewhere. Several times, doing this, I've been snookered into wondering why the rose had so many feeder roots in the middle of winter, only to find that the feeder roots were the Bermuda Grass roots, happily growing through winter. | ||
| stephen scanniello (Steprose) Supreme Crown Gall ! Username: steprose Post Number: 572 Registered: 01-2006 |
besides, Fluzifop sounds like something that girls from Baltimore use to keep their hair piled high...... | ||
| stephen scanniello (Steprose) Supreme Crown Gall ! Username: steprose Post Number: 571 Registered: 01-2006 |
I agree with Linda, 100%. Weeding is a part of gardening. Insects are a part of gardening. No matter what you spray, you'll never get rid of these pests. If you're a gardener, plan to spend time in the garden dealing with "pests". ss | ||
| stephen scanniello (Steprose) Supreme Crown Gall ! Username: steprose Post Number: 570 Registered: 01-2006 |
thank you linda, ss | ||
| Linda Buzzell-Saltzman (Linda) Bug Squisher Username: linda Post Number: 22 Registered: 01-2006 |
The only problem with these chemicals is that they're more likely to kill you, your pets, the wildlife, beneficial insects etc. than kill the grass. My advice, for whatever it's worth, is to do more sheet mulching of the places where you want to eliminate the grass. Just did some this weekend, putting down dampened cardboard covered by a BIG layer of mulch. This also does wonders for the tilth of your soil underneath as the good critters get to work. You can also use old cotton bedsheets or purchased weed cloth. It's not perfect, but it actually gets the same kill rate as the chemicals without the hazards. Persistence is the key, I've found. Plus perhaps some nice barriers between the grass and your beds. The chemical companies want you to believe they've solved the problem and it will be easy, but even if you use the nuclear bomb on the grass it will return! But you may not... I learned about this issue from an elderly lad speaker who talked about growing roses organically. She said she'd stopped using the sprays when so many members of her rose society started getting ill... | ||
| Kaye Kettrey (Arkansasrose) Bug Squisher Username: arkansasrose Post Number: 12 Registered: 01-2006 |
I've not had a problem here using the Fluazifop. In fact, it's been a work saver deluxe since we have nothing but bermuda for lawn. I've oversprayed it on just about everything (except ornamental grasses) with good results. I've found that letting the grass runners grow a bit before applying the Fluazifop gives me a better rate of kill. | ||
| Michael Hampton (Mlh5953) Greenhorn Username: mlh5953 Post Number: 5 Registered: 02-2006 |
Thank you both for your help. I agree with you Jeri. I had a guy come in last year and shovel off the top layer of grass with a Bobcat and cart it off in a dump truck. I then sprayed the area with a heavy dose of Round-Up several times until nothing grew back. I then started layering the area with newspaper and mulch (i.e. lasagna garden). But, either the bermuda grass bounced back or the grass from the lawn has burrowed under the edging and started poking through the layers of mulch. By the way, when I planted the potted roses this spring, I removed the soil from the planting hole and replaced it with bagged garden soil. That way I was sure that there would be no residual herbicide near the new plants. Thanks, Mike | ||
| Jeri Jennings (Jeri) Rowdy Rosarian Username: Jeri Post Number: 452 Registered: 01-2006 |
Stephen and Michael -- We have the Bermuda-Grass-Plague-From-Hades here. We have used "Floozie-Flop" <g> here, in situations where it was grown all around and through roses. The roses appear to have taken no harm. OTOH, it's not like it's killed the Bermuda Grass, either. I can say with certainty that "Floozie Flop" has made the Bermuda Grass ILL. But even when we have followed the application with earnest pulling, the Bermuda comes roaring back within a few months. I am personally convinced that Bermuda Grass is capable of withstanding a nuclear cataclysm, right along with the domestic cockroach. If anyone wants to buy the rest of our "Floozie-Flop," they are welcome to it. One note of caution: We have not used "Floozie-Flop" around any IMMATURE roses. Only long-established mature ones. I'm not sure I'd try it on baby roses. Jeri Jennings | ||
| stephen scanniello (Steprose) Supreme Crown Gall ! Username: steprose Post Number: 569 Registered: 01-2006 |
yes. Weed killers will cause elongated growth, small leaves, and die back. Use with caution. and, welcome to our forum | ||
| Michael Hampton (Mlh5953) Greenhorn Username: mlh5953 Post Number: 4 Registered: 02-2006 |
My yard is mostly Bermuda grass, which is impossible to keep out of my rose beds without a lot of work. It’s not terribly bad yet, but in my current situation, I’m not able to spend as much time tending the garden as I need in order to keep it under control. I’m considering carefully spraying/dabbing something containing fluazifop-p-butyl (Ortho’s Grass-Be-Gone I think) on the grass that has infiltrated the beds. But I’m concerned about the beds with my newest roses (all OGR's). Can fluazifop damage young roses? Thanks, Mike |