| Author | Message | ||
     Jocelen (Rosarosam) Powdery Mildew Username: Rosarosam Post Number: 10 Registered: 05-2006 |
http://www.southisland.org.nz/webpages/63trevor_griffiths_rose_garden.asp | ||
| Behcet Fenercioglu (Jedmar) Powdery Mildew Username: jedmar Post Number: 29 Registered: 10-2006 |
That's it! There is apparently a Trevor Griffiths Rose Garden in NZ with a lot of old roses collected by Trevor Griffiths. How to get a listing of these? | ||
| Kay Cangemi (Mad_gallica) Bug Squisher Username: mad_gallica Post Number: 71 Registered: 01-2006 |
Hmm, Suzy Verrier lists a 'Jeannette', from Descemet, France, 1815. It's listed as available from Trevor Griffiths in New Zealand. The description is 'Mid-sized, doubled crimson blooms that fade to light rose. Fragrant. Vigorous strong growth'. That's what's on page 71. | ||
| Behcet Fenercioglu (Jedmar) Powdery Mildew Username: jedmar Post Number: 28 Registered: 10-2006 |
Jocelen, The reference to Suzanne Verrier's book on Gallicas stating "La Jeannette" being found in New Zealand is from François Joyaux's "La Rose de France" page 301. He refers to p. 71 of S.Verrier's book. As I do not have that myself, I could not check it. I would have asked him myself, but I have never contacted him before and I do not have his email address. Send to info@rosagallica.org? | ||
| Mike Fitts (Fittsrose) Greenhorn Username: fittsrose Post Number: 5 Registered: 09-2006 |
I've gotten far more from this post than I bargained for. I think I am going to end up trying Loubert per Anne's recommendation. From what she has told me they are still open (though they are changing ownership soon) and they are still shipping to the U.S. I have printed out the PPQ form to fill out to send to the USDA and I have my quarantine spot picked out. The last thing I need to do is decide which roses I want to order. The roses I will choose from are Abaillard, Roi des Pourpres, Double Brique, Catinat, Malesherbes, Hector, Bijou des Ametuers, Oeillet Flammand, Narcisse de Salvandy, Orpheline de Juillet, and Victor Parmentier. Thank you for all your posts. They have been much appreciated. Mike p.s.- I am going to email Dr. Joyaux about Hortense de Beauharnais. | ||
| Cass Bernstein (Cass) Bug Squisher Username: Cass Post Number: 241 Registered: 01-2006 |
Anne, you should use your own FedEx account for the Loubert shipping. FedEx handled customs with effeciency, faxing me forms and paying duties via my credit card. FedEx packages from the EU get home before I do (tho I haven't tried roses). | ||
| Jocelen (Rosarosam) Powdery Mildew Username: Rosarosam Post Number: 9 Registered: 05-2006 |
Sorry for the late answer: I was at the conference in Perth. From memory 'La rose de France' was published in 1998 and I took the pictures in 2003, which leaves plenty of time to re-discover the rose. Why not asking to Fr. Joyaux directly? For 'La Jeannette'. I have never seen this rose in New Zealand. It is not listed on the list of roses present in NZ before 1940, list established by J. Knight this year. I can not find a reference of it in any book, maybe because of my legendary blindness. I would be interested in knowing the source of this information from S. Verrier. | ||
| Anne Belovich (Anne) Bug Squisher Username: Anne Post Number: 19 Registered: 01-2006 |
I'd like to take the conversation back a little to sources for Gallicas. Pepiniers Loubert offers over 200 varieties, about 2/3 of those listed in Francois Joyaux's comprehensive book, La Rose de France. There has been a concern that this nursery might not continue to export to the US but the Louberts just confirmed an order that I sent to them, with only a few roses back ordered for next November. Those will be sent by the new owner who will be taking over the business, under the same name, at that time. I enquired about having the order sent by a faster delivery service than had been done previously and I was told that I could have them sent by Fedex for an additional charge. I don't know how much that is but I'll let you know when I find out. I'll certainly make use of it. | ||
| Behcet Fenercioglu (Jedmar) Powdery Mildew Username: jedmar Post Number: 19 Registered: 10-2006 |
Hi Jocelen! Two questions: François Joyaux says that one sole example of Hortense de Beauharnais was at L'Hay, but that this disappeared as a result of some mix-up with Hypatia. On the other hand, on your website there is a picture you have made at Cour de Commer in 2003. Can you confirm Hortense still exists? If it is so rare, should we not seek to propagate it at various locations? Stephen says earlier in this thread that the HRF would be interested. There are also Gallica interested rose growers over here in Europe. Regarding La Jeannette, François Joyaux lists this as extinct, but remarks that there is a claim in Suzanne Verrier's book on Gallicas, that this rose is still bred in New Zealand. What can you tell us? By the way, your website is fabulous in the wealth of information! | ||
| Jocelen (Rosarosam) Powdery Mildew Username: Rosarosam Post Number: 8 Registered: 05-2006 |
Hi Behcet, Sorry for the late non-answer... What is the question? Jocelen | ||
| stephen scanniello (Steprose) Supreme Crown Gall ! Username: steprose Post Number: 703 Registered: 01-2006 |
that would be fine, Kay. I am curious as to the interest in ogr's in our area (Northeast) and especially in your neck of the woods (I have family and friends up in the Woodstock to Chatham area). I don't hear too much, other than what we see on this site. | ||
| Kay Cangemi (Mad_gallica) Bug Squisher Username: mad_gallica Post Number: 70 Registered: 01-2006 |
Stephen, the next time I get one of these emails I should put them in contact with you? These are not rose people. To generalize, these are people who have some interest in history, and know just enough to think there may be others who are interested in their old rose. They find me through the CR page of the ARS. It's quite possible that they aren't particularly interested in keeping the rose, but want to ask around before digging it out. About half offer cuttings. The other half probably doesn't know enough horticulture to do so. No one so far has had photographs to send me. Slightly more sophisticated people show up on Garden Web asking for IDs for old roses. They do tend to have photographs, though usually just mug shots. | ||
| Behcet Fenercioglu (Jedmar) Powdery Mildew Username: jedmar Post Number: 18 Registered: 10-2006 |
Then Jeannette or La Jeannette from Descemet, 1815: Bobbink & Atkins, Modern Roses: "The double flowers are bright light red, fading gradulally to light rose pink" and Madame Saportas, before 1842: Bobbinds & Atkins, Modern Roses: "The large, full, intensely fragrant flowers are bright rosy red" Not much to base on, I'm afraid. | ||
| Behcet Fenercioglu (Jedmar) Powdery Mildew Username: jedmar Post Number: 17 Registered: 10-2006 |
Similarly, Hortense de Beauharnais, Vibert 1834. Bobbink & Atkins says: "the soft pink, double flowers are dotted with a darker shade" Modern Roses: "pink bland flowers edged rosy lilac, double Vibert: dark pink, dotted Strangely enough, there is a picture available on the Rosarosam site from the Roseraie de la Cour de Commer: http://www.rosarosam.com/gardens/commer/hortense_de_beauharnais.html Who has contacts with Jocelen Janon? | ||
| Behcet Fenercioglu (Jedmar) Powdery Mildew Username: jedmar Post Number: 16 Registered: 10-2006 |
Finding a place will not be the problem: we can grow them on both sides of the Ocean! Easiest to describe is Pépita from Moreau, as this seems to have disappeared recently and we have a picture on helpmefind: http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/pl.php?n=2209&tab=10 Bobbink & Atkins says "very pretty soft rosy pink variety striped with white" The example they have in l'Hay is apparently about to die. Such a pretty flower should have survived somewhere! | ||
| stephen scanniello (Steprose) Supreme Crown Gall ! Username: steprose Post Number: 700 Registered: 01-2006 |
well, hello, uh...the Heritage Rose Foundation is interested in identifying and perserving them. let's hear more about these mysteries: where are they, who has them, why don't they share this with us..... | ||
| Kay Cangemi (Mad_gallica) Bug Squisher Username: mad_gallica Post Number: 69 Registered: 01-2006 |
If they are reasonably strong growers, yes, they might be around somewhere. I usually get a couple of emails each June regarding identifying mystery once bloomers. Unfortunately, I don't know of any organization that is interested in either identifying or preserving them. My personal rose space is down to places that are either very shady or very wet. We are seriously considering taking up breeding with R. palustris. | ||
| Behcet Fenercioglu (Jedmar) Powdery Mildew Username: jedmar Post Number: 15 Registered: 10-2006 |
François Joyaux claims in his book "La Rose de France" that the Gallicas Hortense de Beauharnais, Jeannette, Mme Saportas and Pépita are probably extinct. These roses are still found on the 1937 Bobbins & Atkins catalogue. Any chance they might have survived in the US? | ||
| stephen scanniello (Steprose) Supreme Crown Gall ! Username: steprose Post Number: 695 Registered: 01-2006 |
of all the budded roses, gallicas and others, the plants from Pickering seem to be the best. | ||
| Kay Cangemi (Mad_gallica) Bug Squisher Username: mad_gallica Post Number: 68 Registered: 01-2006 |
I've considered planting them in pots, except I was not happy with the medium-term results of planting perennials in pots. For the first few years it worked fine. Then the Japanese anemone escaped through the bottom, and the mint died out from lack of room to expand. I can easily imagine both results with a rose. Not to mention that large nursery pots are unknown here, and I'll probably hit bedrock at less than 18 inches. Leonie Bell got so fed up with La Belle Sultane that she sent it to Pickering, and then bought back a budded version. If budded gallicas were more readily available, I'd definitely try that. However, given the almost certain death in this climate of budded HTs with exposed bud unions, I'm reluctant to try it with something that may turn out to be irreplacable. Yet another reason I should learn how to attach roses to rootstock. | ||
| Mike Fitts (Fittsrose) Greenhorn Username: fittsrose Post Number: 4 Registered: 09-2006 |
Thank you to all that have responded to my question. I appreciate the input as it will help me with my planning. Thank you Anne for the idea of large pots. Using them will depend on where I plant the roses. I must also add that I plan on trying to hybridize some gallicas also. The inspiration to do this comes from a few hybridizers: namely Paul Barden, Pirjo Rautio, and the living Jeanne-Pierre Vibert. Paul goes into great detail about his experiences with gallicas on his website,which is a great help. Mike | ||
| stephen scanniello (Steprose) Supreme Crown Gall ! Username: steprose Post Number: 694 Registered: 01-2006 |
excellent recommendations. In brooklyn, we tried the large pots, in ground, to keep tree roots from stealing from the roses. Alot of work, but it did give newly planted roses a chance to gain some growth. Soon after all that digging the trees were removed...... | ||
| Anne Belovich (Anne) Bug Squisher Username: Anne Post Number: 18 Registered: 01-2006 |
Thanks for your list of Gallicas, Mike. I think it's wonderful when someone has a real passion for a particular class of old roses. I've decided to increase my collection of OGRs in order to add interest to my extensive collection of Ramblers, and as the Gallicas are a personal favorite,I'll put much of my first effort to expanding that class. Your list will be helpful. I've had a lot of fun lately going over Vintage Gardens offerings and dreaming over Francois Joyeaux's gorgeous book "La Rose de France" that I bought when I visited his garden in France seven years ago. I'll certainly try to import any roses I can't buy here. I've been importing roses for almost 10 years, mostly with very good results. I think its a good idea to make sure you have both the temperment and the budget to handle import failures when they happen. If you don't, you're better off sticking with US and Canadian sources where not much is apt to go wrong. I sure wish we could import some of those roses from Italy that Behcet has mentioned. I agree that the suckering of Gallicas is an exasperating problem. I've thought about planting them in a large pot, maybe 25 gallons, sunk in the ground. They cost $6 or $7 each. A less expensive way, suggested by Paticia McDonald, is to cut a plastic garbage container crosswise into three pieces and use those in place of the pots. Joyce Demits suggested lining the planting hole with several layers of landscape cloth. Maybe I should try all three methods to see which one works best. Anne | ||
| stephen scanniello (Steprose) Supreme Crown Gall ! Username: steprose Post Number: 691 Registered: 01-2006 |
off with their heads! mowing is a perfectly politically correct way to prune. Do you guys know that R. gallica is on the invasive plant list for: Georgina, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, and Virginia. Now, these experts don't say if they are talking about the true species, but they probably think they are. Wonder where they found it? | ||
| Kay Cangemi (Mad_gallica) Bug Squisher Username: mad_gallica Post Number: 67 Registered: 01-2006 |
Gallicas (and rugosas) have a tendency to run. The well-behaved ones act like aggressive perennials. The bad ones can cover an amazing amount of space in a very short time. The terrible ones send out scout runners and can pop up ten feet away. This is why in reality I don't grow that many of them. Where I have good conditions for roses is in prepared perennial beds, and if a rose wants to run much at all, I'm continually chasing it down to keep it out of other plants. Right now I am fighting Tuscany and The Bishop in perennial beds. Roses that have already established a reputation as spreaders get moved to unamended soil in the back. That slows them down a bit, but after a while they get wanderlust there. If they try growing into the lawn, that's easy. They just get mowed down, and hopefully killed. Boule de Nanteuil, which is on Mike's list specifically is one that has met its match in John Deere, though the Apothecary Rose has also met mower blades. Unfortunately, I can't get the tractor up to Jenny Duval, and am going to have to figure out another way to deal with that one. It's growing into a grass path having escaped from what was essentially a rock pot. We thought that Desiree Parmentier was going to be another bad one, but it hasn't suckered much since the original spurt. What is wrong is that nobody wants the extras, so I may as well mow them down. At this point, the only once bloomers I seem to be able to get rid of locally are R. glauca seedlings. Occassionally I find herb people who are interested in the Apothecary Rose, but nothing else. So right now I have pots of Boule de Nanteuil looking for homes that really should be composted because they have been in those pots for years. I'm ready to take Round-Up to Jenny Duval. Glory of Edzel is another one I can get rid of for now. I'm running out of potential homes, but not potential suckers. Mary, Queen of Scots just gets mowed down. So, anybody who wants to come here and dig is welcome. | ||
| stephen scanniello (Steprose) Supreme Crown Gall ! Username: steprose Post Number: 690 Registered: 01-2006 |
And of course, there's the whole concept of preservation. The more people that grow and share these all-to-important roses will guarantee their longevity in our gardens, and of course, in our lives and in the lives of those who will inherit their legacy due to our efforts. We need to collect all possible varieties and cultivars, compare them for duplication, and keep accurate records of what we have today - including records of those varieities that don't make it in certain zones. A project of the Heritage Rose Foundation would like to undertake is the creation of collections of cold hardy OGR's, not necessarily one collection, but perhaps several small ones throughout the appropriate zones, where all rosarians can see these roses, study them, and share cuttings. Of course, that won't happen unless we can gather enough interested volunteers to help us collect the roses, create collections, and raise money for this cause. | ||
| Mike Fitts (Fittsrose) Greenhorn Username: fittsrose Post Number: 3 Registered: 09-2006 |
Kay, Please pardon my inexperience. I see nothing wrong with the question that I asked. Some of us out here don't have the vast experience that you may have and therefore that is why we ask questions. Isn't that how one learns? Anyhow, I understand that you are saying that importing is a waste of time and money. If there are sources here in North America that have the roses that I want, then by all means, I would rather get them here. I happen to enjoy the thought of growing rare roses because to me they are not just roses they are history and I happen to enjoy that too. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I do have one question for you, though. What varieties are you killing by the large handfuls and why? Again, please pardon my question but I don't want to be dumb at this my whole life. Mike | ||
| stephen scanniello (Steprose) Supreme Crown Gall ! Username: steprose Post Number: 686 Registered: 01-2006 |
well, how about a list of those you've killed, for starters? | ||
| Kay Cangemi (Mad_gallica) Bug Squisher Username: mad_gallica Post Number: 66 Registered: 01-2006 |
I don't think the source list needs to be much more than a listing of who has what. The problem is simply getting and organizing the information. Something that occured to me a couple of years ago, is that I personally have no real feeling for what roses are rare, and what aren't. There are roses that ten years ago were readily available from Royall River, the Roseraie and Mike Lowe that seem to have practically disappeared. That isn't taking into account what Kathy Zuzek called 'non-sources'. Nurseries that are just impossible to deal with because of climatic differences. It just strikes me as very, very wrong that people are talking about ordering roses from France that I kill in large handfuls every year in an attempt to keep them under control. | ||
| Olga Galperina (Olga_6b) Powdery Mildew Username: Olga_6B Post Number: 24 Registered: 04-2005 |
Hortico has a good selection. I buy gallicas from them every yer. Have approx 30 different ones in my garden. You miss on your list several really good ones. For example: Jenny Duval, Alice Viena, Anais Segales, Beau Narciusse (sp?), Belle Doria, Camaeuix (sp?), Belle Hermione. I am also suprised you didn't mention Apothecary rose and Rosa Mundi. Olga | ||
| Behcet Fenercioglu (Jedmar) Powdery Mildew Username: jedmar Post Number: 10 Registered: 10-2006 |
One of our members has recently come upon an incredible source of Gallicas in Italy. This enterprise has its Gallica stock from the Roseraie de la Cour de Commer in France via François Joyaux. They have just been dealing with Italian customers and are not used to exporting unfortunately, but there are persons who speak English there. We are just trying to get roses from them to Switzerland and Germany. Here is the Link to their Website: http://www.vivaiolacampanella.com/ | ||
| Sue Hopkins (Seattlesuze) Bug Squisher Username: seattlesuze Post Number: 34 Registered: 01-2006 |
Kay, what's the best way to set up a non-commercial source list? Shall we use the HelpMeFind gardens list or create a non-commercial listing here on HRF? I have Boule de Nanteuil (who was crushed about you calling him a thug and grabbed me for a bear hug as I walked by this morning!), Tuscany Superb, and Hippolyte. All ownroot and happy to share cuttings. | ||
| stephen scanniello (Steprose) Supreme Crown Gall ! Username: steprose Post Number: 671 Registered: 01-2006 |
I noticed that Peter Beales is accepting orders for 2007 Kay, good idea ss | ||
| Kay Cangemi (Mad_gallica) Bug Squisher Username: mad_gallica Post Number: 64 Registered: 01-2006 |
Pickering's once blooming OGR list shrunk noticably between last year and this one. There really isn't currently a good North American source of gallicas that I know of besides what Vintage decides to propagate. A fair number of these are listed in an old Mike Lowe catalog. So they are out there, but not necessarily in commerce. I have several of them. (Boule de Nanteuil is a thug) Given how rapidly they have dropped out of commerce in the last ten years, how about a Non-Commercial Source Listing, so we have some idea what is where. It's an alternative to a future where a bunch of nurseries sell the same half dozen 'name' gallicas, and nothing else. | ||
| stephen scanniello (Steprose) Supreme Crown Gall ! Username: steprose Post Number: 670 Registered: 01-2006 |
check out Pickering in Canada stephen | ||
| Mike Fitts (Fittsrose) Greenhorn Username: fittsrose Post Number: 2 Registered: 09-2006 |
Over the past year and a half I've really grown fond of the gallicas. At this point in time I just have many of the usual suspects like Charles de Mills, Duchesse de Montebello, Belle de Crecy, Cardinal de Richelieu, Belle sans Flatterie, and Ombree Parfaite. I also have a few lesser grown varieties like Fleurs de Pelletier and Agatha Incarnata. I am planning on purchasing Paul Barden's Ellen Tofflemire, Marianne, and Allegra. I also am eagerly awaiting Vintage's List to come out in the next couple weeks. Anyhow, I've been to Roses Loubert's site and looked at there list and they have several that I would like to purchase but from what I have heard they have either went out of business or stopped exporting. My want list consists of ABAILLARD, ADELE HEU, ADELE PREVOST, AGATHA FATIMA, AIMABLE ROUGE, BIJOU des AMATEURS, BOSSUET, BOULE de NANTEUIL, CATINAT, EMILIE VERACHTER, EULALIE LEBRUN, EUPHROSINE l’ELEGANTE, GIL BLAS, HECTOR, INCOMPARABLE d’AUTEUIL, LOUIS van TYLL, MALESHERBES, NANETTE, NARCISSE de SALVANDY, OMBREE PANACHEE, OMBREE SUPERBE, ORPHELINE de JUILLET, PANACHEE SUPERBE, THALIE la GENTILLE, DESIREE PARMENTIER, TUSCANY SUPERB, HIPPOLYTE, KAWKASSKAJA, PERLE des PANACHEES, PLUTON, SURPASSE TOUT, and DUC de GUICHE. Now I know several of these can be found at Vintage or Ashdown or Uncommon Rose but for many, they would have to be imported. Is there another place other than Loubert that exports a good variety of gallicas? What about Roseraie de l'Haye, Sangerhausen, or Professor Joyeaux's Commer? Is there any hope for my addiction to these roses? Thank you, Mike |